I bought a used 1993 toyota corolla. 140,000 miles. The previous owner purchased it at 105,000 miles. During the time he owned it he never had the timing belt replaced.
Since toyota recommends replacement of the belt (70,000 miles) I am not sure if its ever been done.
Several possibilities:
Belt has never been replaced.
Belt was replaced prior to 105,000 miles.
Belt has never been replaced.
Is there anyway that a mechanic can tell if and when the belt was replaced? I don't want to spend $700 for a replacement if no needed. I also don't want the belt to break and ruin the engine.
Is that info stored in the diagnosis computer or can toyota look and tell if its been replaced and when?
The local NAPA manager says don't take car to toyota, because they will overcharge. Take it to a good independent garage. Is a regular shop qualified do timing belt, or is it so technical that it should only be done by toyota?
No real way to tell unless there is a receipt for it, unless the markings are on the belt and still can be read. If the belt used to replace it was not OEM then it was replaced, if they used OEM brand then no reliable way to tell without tearing it down to look at other hidden items.
The NAPA guy is right/wrong. The dealer MAY be priced higher when compared to an independent shop. They may not. As for it being a difficult job? Not really hard to do just can be aggravating to get into the belts location on some vehicles with some engines as they don't really design vehicles for easy service.
Mileage wise I would replace the belt IF the car is in good shape and runs good. I would suspect it may have been changed out at 70-80K and if it wasn't it's on borrowed time. Even if it was changed out at 105K I would change it simply as a preventative measure.
I don't want to spend $700 for a replacement if no needed.
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A good independent shop can do the job as well as or sometimes better than a dealership shop. Spend some time and find out who is good, then get an estimate from the dealership and from the independent.. You may find a large difference, or maybe very little.
Follow up : went to dealer: for $285 parts and labor they will replace belt. "If" water pump looks bad dealer will advise me and bill will go up to $650. (we don't automatically replace water pump or push it unless its really needed)
The independent shop said always replace water pump and they will charge $650. (If you want we can just slap a belt on and match price)
Big difference in price to replace a part thats not needed just to be cautious or run up the bill. What goes wrong with water pump? seals leak or impeller wear out or what? Since most of the labor is already been done getting to the belt, seems suspicious that bill more than doubles just to stick in a $115 water pump. (which could also be defective and leak)
Most places figure if they're going in there anyway, might as well replace the pump. But the jump from $285 to $650 is outrageous. I bet if you asked them why the big jump, they'll say one of two things: First, that's what AllData tells them. I avoid shops that use AllData because for some odd reason they do this: price out labor for replacing a timing belt. OK, X hours.
THen, when they price out the water pump, they price out taking the covers off, loosening the pulley, removing the timing belt, removing the pump and gasket. Then they price out replacing the pump and gasket, replacing the timing belt, retightening everything and replacing the covers.
Now, if you replace the timing belt AND replace the water pump, they charge the HOURLY RATE for replacing the timing belt, AND the HOURLY RATE for replacing the water pump!!! WTF?!?!?! Go to parts and buy a timing belt. Tell them you want to replace the water pump and while you're at it, throw the old belt away and replace it with THIS and hand them the new belt.
If they say the water pump is a high quality item and will last hundreds of thousands of miles, aks them "Does that mean the one on there now is an inferior part?" ;)
the habit of always replacing coolant pumps comes from the garbage detroit uses. imo, it's inappropriate to replace honda or toyota pumps on the first belt [it's not in the honda maintenance schedule for instance]. they're usually in great shape, and if the coolant hasn't been neglected, will last through the life of the second belt.
otoh, if you have cheapo aftermarket or even "brand" like delco, some of them are utter CARP. i recently took the pump off my toyota when i did the timing chain, and the delco pump bearing was shot, the seal leaking, and the individual component quality was appalling. if something of that standard had been fitted to a motor with a belt, it wouldn't have lasted the life of the belt, so from that perspective, replacing the pump will put you in a /worse/ position than keeping the original oem on there - the aftermarket will fail well before the belt is due.
Only an idiot thief would charge like that and only an idiot customer would pay that much. Typically the labor guide lists the r&r timing belt, usually about 3 hours, then there are add-ons...water pump .8 hours, crank seal .6 hours etc Customers have every right to decline an estimate and go somewhere else. HTH, Ben
In the last 15 years I have replaced the water pump and shaft seals with every timing belt job. It makes no sense to me to tear the car that far down and leave old stuff in. I have the luxury in this stage of my career to pick and choose my customers and the jobs I do. If the customer wants to do a half-assed job or quibble and moan about prices I happily send them down the road. Ben
sure thing dude, you do what works best for you. and if i was driving detroit garbage or running cheapo aftermarket, i'd be right there with you. but i'm not, i'm running oem honda, and i'm telling you, it's in perfect condition and ok to keep running. there's as much point preemptively changing it as there is preemptively changing the muffler.
Of course. But most shops using AllData follow this rule.
I got into an arguement with a service manager one time about this. Wanted $300 for the timing belt and another $300 for the water pump. But you have to remove the timing belt to do the water pump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Took it to an independent shop and had it all done for $285.
There is a huge difference between maintaining your own car and maintaining numerous cars for customers. Anyone can scramble their own eggs, but not everyone can be a short- order cook. Ben
i worked as "a short order cook" for 5 years. thanks for asking. but i moved on and got more qualified. and i also really piss people off by insisting on logical analysis and question people who say "this is the way we do it" without ever having bothered to examine "why".
example: every shop skims the head when they do a head gasket. why? because
it's coming out of the customer's pocket, not theirs,
they're afraid of "comebacks" [even though they've never bothered to correlate longevity results between skimmed and non-skimmed heads. seriously, i've never met anyone ever who has actually done that math.]
they don't bother to understand that what worked for cast iron /doesn't/ work for aluminum because machining finish results are so different.
skimming for aluminum heads, unless there's warpage or serious corrosion, [which it often can't cure anyway] is an anachronistic malpractice that dramatically shortens the overall life of an engine. but of course, another failure is not within the tolerance of the vehicle's owner, thus, the second time the gasket goes, they get rid of the car, and the shop fortuitously escapes responsibility for their failure to learn.
to put it another way, just because /some/ heads need skimming, it doesn't mean they all do. similarly, just because /some/ pumps need replacement every 50k miles doesn't mean /all/ pumps do. some exhausts need replacement every 5 years. some last 20. it's completely illogical to apply the 5 year rule to a 20 year exhaust.
again, this is why a manufacturer like honda states "inspect", not "replace" for pumps in their service manual. honda's error it seems is assuming people bother to read and exercise logic. because they're certainly not going to benefit from a shop bothering to so some statistical failure analysis when they can just charge a client for a new component, which of course, they're selling at full retail.
There is a huge difference between maintaining your own car and maintaining numerous cars for customers. Anyone can scramble their own eggs, but not everyone can be a short- order cook. Ben
********** When they are charging me $100 or more per hour, and using a flat rate table, I expect them to work as experts and to use all that flat rate time that is necessary to do a professional job.
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