Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

I can *only* speak for *my* experience, and, for me, 100% of the time, my tires were installed improperly.

Since they didn't target me, the only difference between me and everyone else, is that I kept a Bentley on my front seat.

Remember, they had to *ask me* what the torque was when I had asked and they said they torque all lug bolts to 100 foot pounds!

Also, when I told them that I'd check the air pressure, only then did the tech go back to the vehicle, check the door jamb, and then readjust the tire pressure.

Keep in mind, that I saw the old weights on the wheel after it was on the balance machine.

Again, the only difference between me and the next person is simply that I knew (a little bit) about how they *should* be installing tires properly.

Reply to
blue bmw
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Then why is Midas a recommended tire rack installer?

Reply to
blue bmw

That's not what Tire Rack told me.

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That's not what's printed on the Tire Rack web site.
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And, that's why Tire Rack (Ken Tener, Recommended Installer Program Coordinator) booted them from the program. The amount of BS being spouted in this group is amazing. It's too bad. I had expected more astute technical information.

I guess it's *my* fault for trusting Tire Rack's recommended-installer program (although they did immediately cancel their contract with Midas when I reported this to them and they verified it); and it's again, *my* fault for asking here.

I had expected more from this group. I had expected more from Tire Rack's recommended installer program. And, I had expected more from Midas.

All three are my fault.

Reply to
blue bmw

OK. I apologize. I do agree, as with *many* technical issues, the answers are equivocal. That's why I had asked here in the first place. I thought someone else would have already thought of the answer.

It turns out, if you read *some* articles, the tire dots and wheel match-mounting marks are *only* for OE installations.

Yet, if you read others, they're for all installations.

While there were multiple (somewhat conflicting) recommendations in the articles, the *most common* recommendation was as simple as this:

  1. Road force balancing is best.

If you don't road-force balance, then:

  1. If you have a wheel match-mounting mark, and if you have a tire red dot, match the red dot to the match-mounting mark.

  1. If you don't have a match-mounting mark, and you have a red dot, match the red dot to the valve stem.

  2. If you don't have a red dot, then substitute the yellow dot.

Also, common sense now dictates:

a. Know your lug bolt (or nut) torque BEFORE you bring your vehicle to the tire shop, and check the torque with a torque stick afterward (because they torque all vehicles to the same force).

b. Bring along a tool for removal of the hub cap (e.g., for BBS wheels), because the tire shop may use a screwdriver instead.

c. Know your PSI (front and rear) and check the PSI with a tire gauge before you leave the shop (they don't bother to put the correct psi).

d. Remove wheel weights yourself before bringing the vehicle to the shop because you can't trust that they'll do it (they almost never do).

e. Don't bother asking anyone else for advice; they don't know any better than you do.

Reply to
blue bmw

This is my mistake. Not yours.

I had expected advice.

I got opinion.

I do firmly agree it's *my* fault for expecting too much from this ng.

I do apologize.

Reply to
blue bmw

I now have the answer, based on the references, and speaking personally to Ken Tener and Allan at Tire Rack.

The dots to align are the red dot with the match-mounting mark, or, if there is no red dot, then the yellow dot to the match mounting notch, or, if there is no match-mounting dimple, then the valve stem to the red dot (or to the yellow dot if there is no red dot).

However, if someone here knows of *better* references, please post; otherwise, we're pretty much done as there isn't anything more to learn (especially if people have no better information than I had when I started looking for the answer).

Here are the technical references that I know of which discuss proper match mounting of wheels and tires:

  1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
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  2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
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  3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
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  4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
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  5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
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  6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
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  7. Tire Rack article on match mounting:
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Reply to
blue bmw

This has been my experience also, especially since they told me that they torque all lug bolts (and nuts) to the same torque; and they put the same tire pressure (front and rear) in all tires.

They even ballpark the tools, using a screwdriver for a BBS hubcap wrench!

This has been my experience also. For example, they don't even bother to remove existing weights.

Tire Rack said the same thing. In fact, Tire Rack said they sometimes are compensating for under torquing, so they stretch the bolts, just to make sure the wheel won't come off.

My experience also. All get 35 psi, whether you want it or not. And, amazingly, front and rear get the *same* pressure, even for vehicles that clearly aren't supposed to.

Actually, I doubt it would take any training, since everyone on the planet knows these things. Certainly there should not be a single person in this newsgroup who doesn't know these things.

So, it's not training. It's simply being professional.

Reply to
blue bmw

um, you're confusing "midas" with "professional". but that doesn't matter because you're one of those guys that doesn't get it otherwise you'd never have gone there in the first place.

Reply to
jim beam

you're just looking for outdated carp that agrees with your underinformed preconceptions, not the actual facts. truth is, and this is what you simply keep refusing to acknowledge, that with modern quality tires, it's a complete waste of time so you're just a loony howling at the moon.

Reply to
jim beam

relative to a buick, but as a definitive statement, that's simply the delusional ravings of someone susceptible to marketing propaganda.

yeah, that's why their specific outputs are so low and they use macpherson strut. but you're not interested in facts, just the tag-lines of advertising agencies.

Reply to
jim beam

Because Midas pays to be on the list. Tire rack signs on whatever outfits wish to be on the list. The installers get more business and don't need to be bothered with stocking all of the various tires. The chain gets exposure AND while your vehicle is on the lift they might get a brake or exhaust job to add to the tires.

Reply to
Steve W.

then you 100% don't know what you're doing.

so you're a professional tire installer? no? have you ever been one? no? well that says what we need to know.

Reply to
jim beam

no, you're an idiot that sees monsters under every bush. fact is, tire dots are a pointless exercise unless tires and wheels are cheap carp and you're trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. that's why quality manufacturers like michelin don't even put dots on tires.

but wait, that's a rational response to an irrational lunatic that doesn't want to know...

Reply to
jim beam

you mean like some people on usenet???

why don't you call up michelin and tell them they're incompetent and don't know what they're doing? i'm sure they'd love to hire an expert that can put them straight!

Reply to
jim beam

why do tire rack sell cheap carp? or to put it another way, why would midas be stooopid enough to have you as a customer?

Reply to
jim beam

??????????? that says it all!!!

you got that right at least!

Reply to
jim beam

i love it when amateurs tell pro's how to do their job! not only do you have no sense of reality, you have no sense of irony either!

Reply to
jim beam

blue bmw wrote in news:ks640h$a7s$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

You've really bought into their advertising, that's for sure.

LMAO! Since when have Germans not cared about quality?

What color is the sky on your planet?

Reply to
Doug Miller

blue bmw wrote in news:ks6482$a7s$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

So put them on yourself, and quit complaining.

Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

Reply to
Doug Miller

NOT true. Most good shops will remove the lugs with an impact and install using either torque sticks or an actual torque wrench. I know both of the local shops use sticks.

All depends on the vehicle. If it needs a special tool then it doesn't hurt to bring it. In the case of 99% of vehicles either a small bar or a screwdriver is the correct tool.

The "correct pressure" for the tire you install may not be close to the number on the door sticker. That is especially true if you use a non stock size or an entirely different make of tire. Then you go out and measure the contact patch.

Most remove added weight then spin the bare rim to see if it is true and balanced.

Reply to
Steve W.

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