Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

I totally agree with the theory on that, but in recent experience, in a small town, that customer will leave the premises, and proceed to tell everyone he meets that day that the shop "tried to rip him off"...when of course the shop just wanted him to leave.

GW

blue bmw wrote in news:ks9dia$mhd$ snipped-for-privacy@news.albasani.net:

You appear to be arguing that a BMW is a POS.

A very expensive POS.

Barnum was right.

You have to define "match mounting." There are multiple definitions. You'll get what you're willing to pay for. For my cars simply getting each wheel individually balanced so there is no vibration at any speed I drive at, is all my car deserves. So I disagree with your second point above.

Vic Smith wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

bluebmw's posts are simply the noise of a snob. The only way that he can to justify to himself the enormous amount of money he spent on a car that by his own admission suffers from serious quality problems is to make every possible effort to perpetuate the fantasy of its imagined superior performance -- like that makes any difference at all when he's stuck in traffic on his daily commute to work.

Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

Hello David,

This is my fault. You seem to be think reasonably. It was my fault for not promptly re-iterating the seven references cited. Here are the seven original references, all of which I've read:

1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
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2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
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3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
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4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
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5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
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6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
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7. Tire Rack article on match mounting:
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   An eighth reference "might" be this Michelin (airplane) tire installation reference, which is only included here because JB intimated that Michelin doesn't even use the red dots - which - a quick google showed to be false (at least for Michelin, the company, and their training on proper mounting of aircraft tires).

1. Michelin recommendations for proper airplane tire mounting:
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   Specifically the level-II certification document, page 12, section titled: "TIRE/WHEEL ALIGNMENT FOR BALANCE".

Not true in the case of BBS wheels.

Out of the last four times I've had tires put on this car, 0% of the recommended Tire Rack installers (twice Goodyear, and twice Midas) had the proper tool.

My vehicle is 100% stock.

MIDAS did not remove the previous weights before attempting to balance the wheels and tire assembly.

Funny. I suspect you're the fool, and you don't even know it, since you're implying *your* tires are installed properly.

:)

Hello Doug,

You don't make sense to me.

Why do you insist torquing to manufacturer specifications is an "irrational definition" of proper procedure?

So you too believe that torquing all vehicle's lug bolts and lug nuts to the *same* torque is rational behavior?

So do you disagree with "We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the vehicle. Using these machines, a colored dot might be positioned anywhere on the wheel relative to each wheel's runout measurement. In the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed."

Are you bringing new OEM rims and tires to the shop? If not, Tirerack says the dots are meaningless, and the Hunter does the "match mounting." And the Hunter will do the same for all OEM. Tirerack fails to note one thing. "True match mounting" will entail measuring all 4 rims and tires for the car, then matching each tire to the rim best suited to it. This will minimize weights. But it will also require dismounting and remounting some tires after the measurements are made. It may minimize weights, but will still be imperfect, because any rim can distort and change the tire measurement taken on it. It's really an exercise in futility without endless dismounting and remounting to further refine measurements. And the dismounting and remounting will further increase distortions of measurement. So you'll never get close to perfection. You want to pay for this endless nonsense? You can find somebody to satisfy that urge. Up to you. Yellow pages. I'll say it once more. Take it to a shop that sells and balances a lot of tires with a Hunter. Stay out of their hair. Don't mention dots. Take it for a spin at whatever speed you desire. If you get vibration, take it back to the shop for rebalance. It's really that simple.

Michelin actually *does* explain clearly how to install tires based on match mounting marks and on the red dot.

It was on page 32 of the 8th reference, already posted, which was a Michelin certification class in professionally installing tires in critical applications.

Wait. Is your BMW an airplane?

Who is complaining?

I'm asking a question, and responding to the questions that you guys are asking.

I'm not complaining to you (I already "complained" to Tire Rack, the BBB, and to the Attorney's Office in my county).

What you're saying is fraud and deception is fine by you.

Whenever a customer asks for the contractually agreed upon price, the shop should say "sorry, can't do it ... pay 25% more than the contractually agreed upon and advertised price or just leave".

Well, that's fraud and deception.

Actually, this is one point stated so far that *is* valid about bimmers (which shows you're a rare person here who *understands* what he is saying) ...

If you know the dozen (or so) things to look out for, and you replace or repair them periodically, then the E39 (which is what I own) M54 engine *is* a very reliable vehicle!

But - you'd have to: a) Replace the plastic DISA valve with Gary's titanium replica b) Replace the PBT Hella adjusters with EAC's aluminum replica c) Replace the entire Behr cooling system with Zionsville aluminum d) Replace the Graf composite water pump with Stewart metal impellers e) Rebuild the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module (resolder power wires) f) Replace the Kuster nylon window regulator rollers with SS rollers etc.

Note: Very few people here actually seem to know what they're talking about. And that's sad. At least you seem to, which is good.

I said very clearly that the German engineers who designed BMWs do not care about quality components.

What they care about is performance, and safety.

But not quality.

There are many worse cars than bimmers, so, POS is a subjective term (e.g., most FWD cars are a POS from the start - but I'm not arguing that in this thread simply because that's a whole different topic).