2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story

WOW! Ray O would have NEVER approved all this work! ;)

MAKE A NOTE: Small amout of sludge but not a detrimental amount.

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You stated at the top that the engine has only a little sludge. Now it's worn and sludged.

At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing technician's skill and knowledge to say nothing of the service department's responsibility to keep its technicians advised of service bulletins as they are published.

Yes, lucky you! :^)

I would not have had to get involved with this situation because it was an ExtraCare transaction, not a warranty transaction. That said, as Philip mentioned, the dealership does need to review service bulletins with the technicians, preferably make copies for each tech and discuss at periodic shop meetings so that the techs and service advisors are aware of new info.

Great story. I'm glad it turned out well for you. I too have a 2000 Avalon and now I'm wondering... jor

Are you wondering if your Avalon is really a Studebaker?

Are you wondering if you were supposed to be changing your Avalon's oil on occasion?

About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford dealers in the nation, Sanderson Ford of Glendale, Arizona, because of a squealing sound from the front that varied with the speed of the car but not the speed of the engine, and I mentioned this to them. I also asked if the problem could be related to the speedometer (old style with cable) or the brakes. I brought the car in with the wheel covers removed, in case they had to remove the wheels to check the brakes.

An hour later, the dealer said that my problem was caused by loose wheel covers. I reminded them that the car came in without wheel covers and that it squealed when driven that way.

Another hour later, they said the squeal was due to a bad serpentine belt tensioner. I asked how that could cause a noise that varied with the speed of the car instead of the speed of the engine, but they only gave me an indefinite answer. Right after I got on the road, the squeal returned, so I went back to the dealer. This time they replaced the speedo cable, and the noise disappeared.

What I don't understand is, why wasn't the speedo one of the first things they checked, considering how simple it is to disconnect its cable and do a test drive?

I wonder who actually rates these dealers so highly? The car makers themselves? My father had a Grand Prix that he bought at a "highly rated" GM dealer. But it took this dealer about 5 tries to get a power window working again correctly. And it took 3 check engine light incidents and 2 oxygen sensor replacements to correct a problem that turned out to be carbon build-up in the EGR system. Both of these problems were fairly common on this particular model too.

I don't trust dealer awards. Word of mouth remains the best means of knowing how good or bad a dealer or mechanic is.

This works in theory but fails in reality due to the sheer volume of TSBs. In the OP's case (2000 model year) the TSB was probably published four or five years ago. Apparently there is no efficient way to search for TSBs relevant to a particular issue.

regards A.G.

Toyota dealer service awards are based on a number of criteria, including customer responses to factory surveys; having master techs, having all special service tools, factory service manuals, and service bulletins; having shop equipment like brake lathes, wheel balancers, etc; having trained service managers and service advisors; having a parts inventory that results in minimal down time for warranty repairs; and having a facility large enough to handle their average daily service load; and controlling warranty expenses.

I don't know what the current volume of TSB's are, but Toyota used to publish about 10 a month. For and GM used to publish around 100. I read every one that came across my desk and even if I didn't remember the details of the TSB, I did remember that one was issued for a particular condition. Toyota publishes indexes of the TSB's s by subject and affected series so a quick scan of the index can tell you if one has been issued for a particular condition. I have not checked lately, but I'm sure there is a computerized database of TSB's that could quickly tell a service advisor or tech about a particular condition.

That dealer didn't get that big by paying well for mechanics. Parts Changers come much cheaper.

TSB dissemination is one indicator of a "good" dealership to work for. And I would invite you to look further into Toyota's online TSB data base that is available to all their licensed techs. Ever tech can get a PDF format document of his very own.

Initially, only the front valve cover was pulled. I was called on the phone to come down and look at the engine. The tech said there was no gel. I asked what he called the black mud near the timing belt end and he said "sludge", but "sludge" is not "gel". He said that gel had the appearance of gelatin and would plug the oil passages, but that they were clear and thus the engine did not qualify for the "gel" replacement program. The rest of the valve area had the typical golden color and looked pretty clean. One valve did "tick" at idle, but that probably could have been fixed with adjustment.

Because of the high oil consumption, Toyota agreed to do a ring job under the extended care agreement, but would not agree to replacing the short block. When the tech pulled the heads (and maybe the pan, I don't know for sure), he said the engine was worn beyond a simple ring job, and said a new block was needed. After further discussion with Toyota, they agreed to replace the short block and rebuild the head under the extended care agreement.

That is why I said it was "worn and sludged." I have a feeling that the dealership preferred to replace the block rather that actually rebuild the engine, as the service manager said that they were not really set up for complete engine overhauls (although he said the tech was qualified to do the overhaul--turns out the tech is an old drag racing buddy of my son--he with a Corvette, my son with a Dodge Challenger). So the service manager may have exaggerated the problem to Toyota in order to get the short block and to avoid rebuilding in the shop (just speculation on my part).

The service manager did know about the Gel program and initially suggested that the work might be done under that. He gave me a printout of the bulletin. He apparently did not know about the valve cover baffle/ventilation issue until I advised him and he confirmed it with Toyota.

This dealer, by the way, is also a Chevy/Buick dealer and there service department is much more experienced repairing those cars. The service manager said that they do a fair amount of Toyota transmission work, but almost never have to repair the engine itself (other than routine maintenance--valves, belts, water pumps, etc.). I think he said they have seen only two Toyota engine failures over the past ten years.

Merritt

He is probably wondering if the faulty baffle/ventilation design of the valve covers is going to cause him a problem.

Merritt

Remembering a TSB was issued on a specific topic is possible.To expect every tech and service rep to do so is a bit much to expect. Familiarity with recent or 'popular' TSBs yes but not ones from four or five years ago. How far back do you realistically think you could go.

The indexes are periodic so finding the correct index could be problematic especially if the recollection begins with 'a few years ago....' An additional issue is the subject is not always fully descriptive of the content's relationship to the desired topic. For example the Avalon's valve cover TSB subject probably did not include something similar to "symptoms similar to those of gelling in the bottom end".

Ah that would be nice but keyword indexing volumes of data is not a trivial task. The size of the indexes can easily exceed the size of the data. Even with perfect indexing the size of the resultset depends upon the client's keyword selection. If no results are found does it mean bad keywords were used or no TSB was ever issued?

As of two years ago there was no rational electronic keyword search of Toyota TSBs, subject or number were only the ways to go.

regards A.G.

I asked Ford and Chrysler how they rated their dealers and which were the highest-rated ones in my area, but both refused to provide any information, but I know that one 5-star Chrysler dealer, Bill Luke, is pretty bad at diagnosing problems, even if they replace every part in the vehicle. Also ABC Nissan has bribed customers for perfect scores by giving them free oil changes.

1. Are there are actually dealers who don't have service manuals and bulletins in stock???
2. Does "controlling warranty expenses" mean stiffing the customers the way Ford and Chrysler do, or does it mean fixing the problem right the first time? I'd like to know which dealers eat warranty expenses the most when the manufacturer won't cover them, but there doesn't seem to be any way to find it. :(
3. Do manufacturers ever rig cars so they don't run right and then bring them to dealers to test their competence?

A ebay type feedback rating would be the best, where every transaction is rated by the buyer, stored on a database where everyone can see, not very likely that will every happen with dealers (except dealers that sell on ebay I suppose)

There is nothing "faulty" about the oil vapor separator matrix inside the valve cover ... IF ... you perform oil changes appropriate to your unique driving conditions. Perhaps you know by now that there have been approximately 3,500 claims filed (fewer qualified) for "gelled" engines. The total population of those affected engines is something on the order of

3.3 million. That evidence suggests most people can get there oil serviced appropriately.

Since the oil vapor separator is riveted in place, Toyota prefers finds it more cost effective to replace with a new valve cover complete vs. the labor and time to remove rivets, clean, and re-rivet the old separator into the old valve cover. Also, the update oil separator simply has a couple more drain holes that are also a little larger. This is not a major modification.