Front Brake job time '04 Sienna

My guess is 2.4 hours, including remove & replace front pads, remove and replace front rotors, machine rotors, and lubricate slides.

Hi Ray,

I should have provided more information...

What would be your estimate without the removal of, or machining of, the rotors?

Sincere thanks,

1.4 hours to remove and replace ("R&R") rotors and machine them. Now that I think about it, this is probably a customer pay job, and the total time will probably be closer to 3 hours, including 1.6 to R&R and machine rotors and 1.4 to R&R pads and lube slides.

Hi Ray,

Many thanks!

You're welcome! Keep in mind that is only my guess as to what the customer pay labor time would be. Dealers use different time guides, which vary in the times for various operations. The actual time is probably closer to 2 hours.

Hi Ray,

I really appreciate the information...

It appears to me that I was charged for the "complete" job (with machining the rotors) even though all that was actually done was the replacement of the pads.

All the best, and thanks again,

If you post what was written on your copy of the repair order, I can decipher it for you.

Hi Ray,

Though I appreciate the offer to decipher, I just looked at the details more carefully than I had earlier.

As had been my concern, indeed, they had resurfaced the rotors though they had expressly told me that it was not needed, and though I had said to them as we ended our phone "So, please go ahead and replace the pads, and do not machine the rotors."

The service manager and I will have a brief chat Monday.

Thanks again for your kind help,

Kenneth,

You're welcome. Good luck with the service manager. Where is the dealership?

Hi Ray,

Epping, New Hampshire, but the story has more to it than you might imagine...

About a year ago, I brought my van in for service. I was really short for time, and the service order taker could see that in my demeanor.

He asked "What do you need?" and I said "Just fluids and filters" meaning, of course, that I wanted them to change the oil and filter, and the air filter if needed.

I came back to pick up the car hours later, and was presented with a bill for $660!

It would not be a distortion to say that they replaced every fluid in the vehicle, and every associated filter.

Clearly, I had been ripped off, but I looked at my watch, needed to get home, and decided to hash it out the following day. I paid, and left.

A day or two later, I called spoke with the Service Manager, and got nowhere. His position was that they had done the work that I had requested. My position was that anyone in the automobile service business should well understand the intent of the widely used phrase "fluids and filters." We were at an impasse. I had no desire to get into a death struggle, and that seemed the end of the issue.

Then, for some reason, about three months after the incident, I decided to give it another try...

I called, and asked for the Service Manager, but as I chatted with him, realized that I had reached a different gentleman from the one with whom I had the first interaction. I asked how long he had been in the role, and he said "about seven years." Next, I asked if he and I had ever talked before, and he said "No." Finally, I asked if there were other people who also used the title "Service Manager" and he assured me that there were not.

With that, it all got more interesting.

I described the situation to him (including the fact that someone else, representing himself as the "Service Manager" had been most uncooperative), he said that he would look into the matter. Eventually, he called me back to ask if I would feel it reasonable if they were to absorb the cost of a 60000 mile service. Expecting to get nothing at all, I was pleased with that offer.

When I brought the car in for that work, they even provided me a rental at no cost.

It certainly seemed to me that they were trying to make this thing right, and I appreciated it.

Then, while they worked on the car, I returned to my office. I was at my desk a few hours later and received a call from the order taker.

I thought that he was about to tell me that my car was ready for pickup, but he said that my "front brake pads were very thin but had not as yet damaged the rotors."

He asked if I wanted the pads replaced.

For obvious reasons, my first reaction was to repeat what he had just told me:

I asked "If I have you replace the pads at this point, am I correct that the rotors would not have to be turned?"

He said "That's right."

Then, (again because of my past experience), to be absolutely sure that he and I understood the request in the same way, I said it a third time: "Then, please replace the pads, but do not turn the rotors."

Well, despite that perfectly clear and repeated request, according to the invoice I paid, they did a complete front brake service including the "resurfacing of the rotors" and I paid $266.89 for parts and labor for that job.

So, with my apologies for all the detail, that's my story (and I'm stickin' to it.)

Thinking about the situation from the perspective of the Service Manager, I rather doubt that I will get the cost reduced. That is because the first time, he was quite clearly trying to get me back there as a customer.

But with (essentially) the same thing having happened again, it would not be likely that he would expect me to set foot in the shop in the future. As a result, he may well assume that there is no value to him were he to make a refund.

Or, he just might be an ethical guy...

I will let you know.

Thanks again for your help,

Around $250 is reasonable for a brake job w/ rotors turned. However, turning them shortens their service life. That why today's rotors are often spec'ed for no turning unless they have more than a nail- catching scoring in them or warpage out of spec.

That said, the old thinking has been to turn the rotors to avoid customer come-backs. I guess from now on you'll make sure they put it in writing?

The dealer in Epping has changed hands since I worked in the area, although the name of the dealership is the same as the owner of a former dealer in New England. If you go to the dealer's web site at

and click on the service department info link, you will see pictures and names of the service manager and service advisor. Toyota refers to dealer service advisors as assistant service managers, or "ASM's." When you discuss the situation with the service manager, ask to see the documentation that notes that you authorized the rotors to be machined, and also ask to see the back of the hard copy of the repair order that documents the technician's work time and notes.

How much time did they list on the repair order?

Hi Ray,

Starting with your last question:

There seems to be no amount of time printed on the invoice, though the labor cost is listed as $196.67. Just before that entry, there is a field called "Units:" (which I assume might be hours) but it is blank, as is every other "Units:" entry on the invoice.

I do intend to convey that in the event that the turning of the rotors was not actually performed, I am due a refund on the charge, but in the event that they can document that the turning was actually done, I expect a refund for the cost, and at least a prorated refund on the decrease to the life of the rotors.

By the way, it is hand written on the invoice "Front brake pads are worn to 2mm." So they were certainly not chewing into the rotors.

Thanks again for all the help,

You're welcome, let us know how you make out.

Hi again Ray,

I have a related question:

How many "resurfacing" opportunities am I likely to have with those rotors?

As of the moment, I don't know if they were actually turned, but if they were, some proportion of the useful life of the rotors was denied me.

Can you help me to determine an estimate of that proportion?

Thanks again,

The number of times a rotor can be machined depends on how much material is machined off each time, the minimum thickness allowed by the manufacturer, and how much material above the minimum thickness there was to start with.

On most Toyotas, the rotors can be resurfaced once if there are grooves or rust, and maybe twice if the technician just took a skim cut to get rid of rust on the outer edge of the rotor.

The problem with resurfacing Toyota rotors is that a brake pulsation often appears in a year or two after the rotors were cut.

Hi aga "Thinking about the situation from the perspective of the Service Manager, I rather doubt that I will get the cost reduced. That is because the first time, he was quite clearly trying to get me back there as a customer.

But with (essentially) the same thing having happened again, it would not be likely that he would expect me to set foot in the shop in the future. As a result, he may well assume that there is no value to him were he to make a refund.

Or, he just might be an ethical guy...

I will let you know."

Well, I sent a detailed letter to the Service Manager last week, waited a week, but had not heard from him.

I called, and he said that he had not seen the letter.

I described the situation to him and he said something that I thought odd initially, "I will have to take your word for it."

Of course, I had assumed that he would talk with the order writer before offering any response.

I asked about that, and he said that the order writer "was no longer with the company." (at least an interesting coincidence.)

Next, I emailed him the original letter, and he responded a few hours later with a letter saying, in essence, that he had already been sufficiently generous, and would, therefore, be making no refund.

I paid for the break job with an Amex card, and have put the matter in dispute.

It is not a fortune, but given the detail I have (that is a description of the problem with no mention of the rotors), together with the fact that they cannot produce my signature making the request that the rotors be turned, I remain hopeful.

That's the status...

All the best,

Kenneth,

Thank you for the update.

You can also give these folks a try...

If it is not too far to travel, you might want to try Rockingham Toyota. I think it is owned by the same owner as when I was in the area, and if it is then they are an honest store.

Hi Ray,

Well sir, we have reached the end of the saga...

I put the brake job matter in dispute with AMEX, and about two weeks later, received a letter from them saying that the dealership refused to provide them any information.

As a result, the letter explained, the matter was resolved with a complete credit to my account.

I responded by telling AMEX that such a resolution gave me too large a credit because Hurlbert had, in fact, installed the new pads.

They are making the adjustment, and with that, the matter is closed.

As before, sincere thanks for all your help,