No, that's the point. With Toyota, a good one is not a unique experience. They're all good. With one purchased new and three purchased used, I haven't had any trouble. None. If my Ford, Chevvies or VW had behaved like that, I'd still be driving them. I drove Volvos for a time (we had 3) and I was pretty happy with them but the Toyotas are much better than the Volvos were.
Maybe over in alt.autos.ford or alt.autos.gm, you could find some ex-Toyota owners with bad experiences to chat with. Would that make you happy?
How many more miles? Before retirement,..at least 500,000miles here, some depending on body condition a couple of hundred thousand more. Here many taxi trips are between towns which are minimum 80 to 200 mile 'round trips. Increasing amount of Toyota Camry V6s are doing the job these days. The mix presently is about 60/40 Ford/Toyota. There is always the odd owner who will put a Benz or some other exotic on the road to probably write some tax off with,..but ultimately they want "reliability" first and last, as time off the road = money lost.
GM's record year: 2007, announced 4th May 2007. ;) Ok, I'm otherwise staying outta this one.
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reports record sales and better automotive profits for firstquarter
4th May 2007
General Motors today announced record global sales, and improved automotive profitability and operating cash flow for the for the first quarter of 2007m but net income was $62 million compared with $602 million a year earlier, a fall which GM said was more than accounted for by losses in GMAC's residential mortgage business, driven by continued weakness in the U.S. nonprime mortgage sector.
Of course not. However, I would pay more for better color, clarity or fewer inclusions. That's to be expected. And I'll drive a hard bargain for it. And I'm more likely to go into a store which has given me good values in diamonds before.
Not for those of us who pay cash or arranged financing before walking in.
You guys are hilarious, any car on the market today is a far better car than was on the market fifteen and twenty years ago, and they were better than those from fifteen and twenty years before that. If you had owned Toyotas from the same period that you owned the domestics you would have had as many problems or more.
Get real, I write checks for the cars I buy as well. The price of the product is the total price you pay for what you get. The price is always the determining factor and that is the point, or else we would all be buying much more expensive cars, or diamonds, than we do. The only difference is one pays less for the same product if they do not finance.
I've been very pleased with imports (except BMW & Fiat) since I last purchased a Pontiac in 1969. American automotive manufacturers screwed me over so badly that they lost me as a potential customer forever.
Actually it is pretty easy to find unhappy Toyota owners. Consumer Reports has a readers comment area on it's on-line site and there are quite a few unhappy Camry owners who took the time to comment there. As part of the site, each of the respondents can rate the car by "stars" 1 thru 5. Here is a comparison
Camry (2007) - 159 total respondents - average "stars" = 4.2
- "1" - 0 (0.0%) Ford Fusion (2006+2007) - 40 repsondents - average "stars" = 4.7
- "5" - 32 (80.0%)
- "4" - 7 (17.5%)
- "3" - 0 (0.0%)
- "2" - 0 (0.0%)
- "1" - 1 (2.5%)
So among Consumer Reports readers that choose to enter a comment, the Camry is running behind both the Impala and the Fusion.
Here are several of the more negative Camry comments -
"Bought the Camry new. After a week, the radio/cd player would not light up and would cut off. Tapping the dashboard would bring sound and lights back. Entire radio/CD unit was replaced under warranty. Most serious issue is the transmission's hesitation. Dangerous situation when entering the Interstate. When gas pedal is depressed, car does not accelerates as expected, then suddenly, it jumps forwar with high RPM. Dealer claims that cars above Corollas have this problem. There are fixes for specific VIN numbers, buy my vehicle is not in that group. Dealer says there is nothing they can do. I am filing claims with Toyota to get my money back. The car is dangerous and my safety is at serious risks."
"precise steering, stability control works very well and breaks are good. BUT transmission hesitates to shift and too much body sway."
"Ride is relatively comfortable, but when accelerating hard engine noise is too loud."
"Squeaks and rattles throughout the dashboard beginning in cold weather. Stereo system projects too much light into the cabin. Cruise control does not work well. Water entered the fuel filler door and froze the cap ring. Interior materials are fragile. This car does not seem like it will last. I am going to trade it."
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"The almighty Toyota has blinked. Gas milage is poor compared to sticker 24-34. overall 19-20mpg.wind noise and engine noise. Trans. late to kick in can be dangerous in certian situations. Save your money. back to dealer 3 times for rattles from dash and console.i cant say enough SAVE YOUR MONEY"
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These comments are not typical of the comments. Most Camry comments are very positiove, but both the Impala and Fusion had a higher percentage of positive comments. Does this prove Toyota Camrys are bad cars? Certainly not. But it should make it clear that they are nothing special either. Even Conumer Report reader didn't rate the Camry any better than it two cheif domestic competitors.
I'm sure the used car salesmen love you, but thanks for proving the point that one can not judge todays car by comparing them to cars they owned almost forty years ago. Even a Toyota fanatic would have a tough time comparing their 1969 to a 2007 LOL
One need not go to a chat room to find a lot of unhappy former Toyota owners. Simply drive past and brand dealership at look at all of the Toyotas that were traded on that brand. The local Mazda dealer here has a
Funny, all those comments are from a guy named Mike? Resale values tell the truth, check edmonds true cost to own and that will tell the whole story. There's always someone who has had a bad experience with any car make, and that's most often what you read about. I won't say my Camry is perfect, but far better than the domestics we stopped buying around 2000 & 2001. Once burned it's hard to go look again.
The problems I had with GM cars, Saturn, Chevy, were broken seat adjusters, bad brakes (3 times under warranty) , bad alternator, bad fuel injection system, and always sqeaks and rattles and poor fitting interior parts (noe that the dealer could fix) .
My Toyotas have had issues, minor rattle (dealer fixed), loose seat track (dealer fixed) , but no powertrain/brake/major electrical system failures. Big difference
After warranty the cost soars on the major repairs.
Isn't that strange, I have the opposite experience. After a dozen or so, I stopped buying Toyotas and Lexus' in 1999. The Toyotas and Lexus' were great cars, but so are the domestics I have been buying. The only real difference I have found is the domestic dealer treats me better and I have been saving thousands of dollars buying the domestics I now buy, as well as hundreds of dollars a year less when servicing them at the dealership.
The virtue of the market is that everything has a value unless it's toxic waste and then, sometimes, it still does.
The market judges that a Camry is worth, pretty much, Toyota's list price. The market judges that an Impala is worth, pretty much, thousands less. Chevy would charge more if they could but they can't.
Just like diamonds. A cloudy diamond with lots of inclusions can be obtained for far less than a clear, flawless diamond. Both are available but the prices will differ.
Not necessarily. It depends on the cost of the money. If I show up to buy a car with cash or bank financing but can get a better deal, net present value, by using dealer financing incentives, I'll do that.
Unfortunately Consumers don't have perfect information. Their judgment is clouded by many factors other than facts. Possibly a Camry is worth more than an Impala, but how would anyone know at the time of purchase?You might say, you are basing your decision on past experience. But how far back do you want to go? Even Toyota admits that their first entry into the American market was overpriced, underpowered, and unsuitable. Maybe you want to pick the last ten years - but why? Maybe the last three years - if so, JD Power surveys suggest there is no reason to think Toyotas are significantly more reliable than Chevrolets.
Around here, Toyota has a $500 rebate on Camrys. Edmunds claims Camrys sell for about $2000 below MSRP at this time- NOT INCLUDING THE REBATE, so they are actually selling for about $2500 under MSRP (at least before the Toyota stealerships tack on a ridiculous doc fee or other nonsense).. According to Edmunds, Impalas (including a $1500 rebate) are only selling about $2300 under MSRP. So it seems to me, using your logic, the Impala is judged to be a better buy, at least in relationship to the MSRP. And since the Impala sells for at least $3k less than a Camry, it seems like a much better deal.
Diamonds are a poor analogy. They are purchased for totally impractical reasons. Or maybe, this is the way Toyota buyers think....
ROFLOL. We've been over that before. The local Chevy dealership doesn't have a single Toyota on the lot. The salesmen come out and drool on mine if I drive onto the lot.
They did get one Toyota last year; my elderly neighbor's. I didn't know she was planning to sell, or I'd have bought it myself. They took it off her hands, "without charging her a disposal fee" and then put it on the lot for $2K. It lasted two days.
But that is one dealer. I just looked at the on-line invetory of the three Chevrolet dealer nearest to me. They have the following Toyotas on their used car lots:
Bobby Murray Chevrolet - 1 Toyota Sir Walter Chevroelt - 1 Toyota Rick Hendrick Chevrolet - 2 Toyotas
Now for the three closest Ford Dealers:
Capital Ford - 9 Toyotas Crossroads Ford - Cary - 9 Toytoas Crossroads Ford - Wake Forest - 6 Toyotas
Now the three closest Toyota dealers:
Leith Toyota - 21 Fords (almost all trucks), 7 Chevrolets (all SUVs) Fred Anderson Toyota - 5 Fords (all but 1 SUVs), 4 Chevrolets (all SUVs or trucks) Mark Jacobson Toyota - 8 Fords (mostly SUVs or Vans), 4 Chevrolet (2 SUVs)
Except for Leith Toyota, I don't see a lot of difference between how many of each other's vehicles the other brands carry. Leith is a large multi-brand dealership. The Toyota store is separate, but they have a Ford dealership 14 miles away in a small town, and a Lincoln Mercury dealership just down the street. I suspect they shift vehicles to the locale they think they are more likely to sell from. Leith is also the dealership that alway promenently displays used trucks and SUVs in front of the dealership. They are also the slimiest dealership around; no matter what brand you are interested in buying. And finally, Leith has a new Tundra sitting on the back of a Ford rollback wrecker out in front of the store. Not sure what message they are trying to send with that.
I am not sure what any of this proves, since all the new car dealers I know only try to sell trade-in that they feel are desirable. If they aren't going to sell quickly they just send them off to the auction. Leith must think Ford trucks and SUVs can be sold profitably since they have quite a few on their lot.
You reminded me of a friend of mine in college. He was always taking about all of the 47 Studebakers he was seeing. I found out he lived in a small town with only two dealerships and he lived down the block from one of them, the Studebaker dealership LOL
I agree 100%. After the warranty expired on the POS Toyota I owned, the repair costs were outrageous. It only takes the Toyota dealer tryig to stick you up for $500 starters and $400 alternator to convince you to never buy another Toyota. I spent more on out of warranty repiars for one Toyota than I spent on all the other cars I've owned in 38 years combined. Toyota parts are ridiculosly over priced. The biggest out of warranty cost on any of my Fords was a bad coil pack on an Expedition with 100,000 miles.
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