Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

Yes but the total yield of all products is practically the same. Are we to conclude from your comment that you do indeed work for the US oil industry, either directly or indirectly?

Huw

Reply to
Huw
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One selective figure which may flatter the petrol and which is not confirmed by my figures for the same horsepower engines. The figures you and I quote should be identical because only official consumption figures are quoted in the UK.

The figures are for A4 petrol which is the only one with the FSi:-

FSi 2.0litre 150hp. 28.5/52.3/39.7

The Golf TDi150 due to this engine not being used in A4 TDi 1.9litre 150hp. 39.8/62.8/52.3

The last of the three figures is about what motorists achieve in practice.

If you insist on only comparing the A4 then the diesel has to be the TDi130. No matter because of the torque advantage the FSI 150 has been tested by 'What Car' magazine as having a 0/60 time of 10.6 seconds while the TDi 130 achieves 0/60 in only 9.9 seconds, thoroughly trouncing the petrol car even in this landmark figure let alone the mid range acceleration.

Here the faster TDi 130 A4 achieves 38.2/64.2/51.4 mpg. The secret to its superior performance is the torque output of

210lbs/ft compared with the FSi's output of 148lbs/ft.

The figures speak for themselves.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Acetaldehyde (from ethanol) is not thought to lead to hangovers; aldehydes from higher alcohols are...

:-) DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Steady... the ex-Comecon countries aren't joining us till 2004...

However, one ex-Communist country did join the EU already, and that was over

10 years ago: East Germany. And, indeed, West Germany had to make exceptions in clean-air legislation to allow the Trabants to continue on the roads...

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

For crying in a bucket, try to look beyond the California border...

1) Diesels have higher resale values in many cases, as I said earlier, in particular smaller ones below about 2.5/2.4 l. A good example might be an E-Class with such an engine. No, you wouldn't see it in the US, but it is very desirable to a lot of people outside the US.

2) You don't need a diesel to get to 60 in more that 5 seconds. Not every American drives around in a 5-litre car, even in Calif...

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

In news:3fd66c99$0$25670$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

What starts in California spreads across the land and to Europe. Diesels do NOT have higher resale here and in particular... California. We even BANNED diesel back in 1998 or 1999 for one year due to emissions. And, diesel will not making a comeback either. Our public is pretty much fed up with oil burners. The miniscule TDI sales here confirm that fact.

I believe I said 10-12 second 0-60 acceleration is minimally acceptable. DAS... stop being deliberately obtuse. Are you unfamiliar with any metropolitan California city? Additionally, anytime you say "all" or "everyone" ... you sink your argument. Not "all" or "everyone" drives on the right side of the road here either. Of course such people are mostly drunks or evading police persuit. ;-)

Reply to
Philip®

I see it's almost impossible for you to grasp anything. Instead, you insist on repeating the same thing over and over, in spite of my refutations. Hey, if you repeat the same thing again and again, you'll think it's true. Knock yourself out.

Deja vu...

Blah, blah, blah...

No, but there are plenty of V6 ones. Actually, this is the most common engine in the US, unlike Europe, where the most common engine is an I4.

Wrong. That's because the consumers started buying trucks instead of full-size cars when they wanted more space.

They never sold in large numbers, otherwise they wouldn't have been brought...

Ahead of VW, Peugeot, Renault, Fiat, Ford, Opel? Not!

As I said, Europeans have different priorities. The Mondeo was a big flop in the US and the Focus didn't realize its expectations... And that's just mentioning Ford...

Wrong. I have a mid-size car and a full-size one, both quite average cars and both have a V6 with over 200HP...

You should stop eating monkey brains...

Blissful you are then, for you didn't explain anything, just mustered your ignorance and prejudices.

Oh, boy...

Sure. Your opinion is very qualified, as your posts have shown...

And why is it noone can find them? Strange, probably becuase of the oil conspiracy...

Sigh...

You're a text-book sophist!

Reply to
Neo

I'm sure they will. Most of them have an average IQ and can grasp that not denying is not the same as confirming.

Reply to
Neo

While in some large areas it's up to 2000ppm...

Can you?

Sure, like in CA when the average sulfur content is 140ppm???

I never said you didn't, but that you live in dirtier cities, thus your need for it.

Have they? Wher did you learn that? Show us. Your fictious statements have zero value.

My, you're amazingly paranoid...

And Portugal, Italy and France were until just recently part of the

3rd world, right?

Why answer a personal attack?

You may not be able to see it, but it shows...

If you're refering to stratified direct-injection gas engines, that's right, as I've already said before, but if you're referring to stoichiometric direct-injection gas engines, then your statement is wrong. Point in case, the 156 JTS.

EuroV allows for more polution from Diesel engines than from gas engines...

No, it's because you made no point.

And your lack therof.

Reply to
Neo

connected

You are being silly.

I4 may be the most common engine configureation in Europe but 6 cylinder engines are very common also.

They certainly do now. However Ford has withdrawn its two offerings in that sector and GM has dropped one and is about to stop producing the other.

I do not follow this. Large companies often buy smaller and even larger rivals if they have some advantage for them. If they did not show an advantage then they would not be bought.

In many market sectors, yes, absolutely. BMW 3 series outsell many 'volume' rivals in the UK.

average

That is in the USA. As it happens I have had 6 and 8 cylinder cars from 2.0litres up to 4.2 litres but always in premium brands.

indication

explanation. Oh

mustered

figures.

power as

Oh dear. Tell him Philip. Explain to him how common such engines now are.

And you Sir are a text book Ostrich apart from your head being up your nether regions rather than in sand LOL.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

In news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, Neo being of bellicose mind posted:

Well Huw... the crankshaft is -not- connected to the wheels. ;-)

Reply to
Philip®

In news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com, Neo being of bellicose mind posted:

OUTSIDE of California, trucking companies with their own refueling terminals used to (they may still) dispose of their used crankcase oil into their diesel fuel.

that's

I think the California CARB and SCAQMD and Federal EPA know this too.

Reply to
Philip®

In news:3fd77b1a snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Well... as a GENERAL rule from idle; a sharply disproportionate increase in torque to increase in RPM is desirable in a truck engine... be it diesel or gasoline. This can be accomplished with high compression (which tends to limit maximum RPM), with more reciprocating weight (solid wrist pins), and an 'under-square' bore/stroke relationship ("stroker") giving more mechanical leverage against the crankshaft. Heavy flywheels do not produce continual torque. These are all techniques used in diesels because of the single focus .... low RPM torque. A few gasoline engines take advantage of these mechanical techniques. An example would be the

1ZZFE engine found in the Corolla. One way to get more torque from the engine was to make the stroke 12mm longer than the bore width ('under-square'). A longer stroke results in greater leverage against the crankshaft but with the trade off of increased piston speed for any given RPM compared to a shorter stroke at the same RPM. Longer stroke also subjects the piston greater acceleration and deceleration forces. 4,400 feet per minute is considered a safe maximum speed for a cast aluminum piston with less than 12:1 compression. Diesels ... due to their typically long stroke and 20:1 compression reduce the safe piston speed to about 2,800 feet per minute.
Reply to
Philip®

Not in neutral LOL.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

You are again reading the torque curve from the wrong end for a sensible interpretation. However, you are correct in that the start-off torque is important and for a nice tractable engine the torque at 1000 rpm should iseally be at least 75% of the torque at rated maximum speed.

This can be accomplished with

Heavy flywheels provide inertia, not engine torque as measured at the flywheel by a brake dynamometer, yes.

These are all techniques used in diesels because of the

Modern direct injection diesel engines vary from 16:1 to around 18:1 compression ratio. Most modern car diesels rev to 4500 to 4800rpm although their maximum power may be found a few hundred lower.

The question originally posed at the top of this page was about torque rise in truck engines though. You will find very many examples of engines with over 35% rise and a constant power over 30 to 40% of their rev range. Most are even seen to be 'rising power' engines where their horsepower actually rises as revs drop from their rated speed over a considerable range. This rather common characteristic is obviously as obscure to Neo as the workings of the torque curve and the need for a flattish one for petrol engines and the relation between the torque curve and engine power, let alone its practical relevance to road performance. This is rather at odds with his superior attitude.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

It is well known that in Australia it has been fairly common for some fuel stations to dilute highly taxed road fuel with low taxed off-road fuel including heating oil to increase revenue illegally. This is not uncommon illegal practice everywhere. In the UK heating oil has recently had colour added to stop the practice which was done on an individual basis here. Some actually have been known to run their vehicles exclusively on heating oil with some super universal oil added. Those caught face severe official sanctions.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Yes. Ahead or similar. Depends on country. In Britain Ford and Vauxhall (GM) are the best sellers. In Germany (people are richer!), Europe's biggest country, the situation is completely different.

See the Sep 03 sales figs, for example:

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VW Golf/Passat sold 27 000 vehicles. Merc C/E sold 22 000.

As you can also see, Merc totally thrashed BMW, but the ratios vary from month to month, also dependeoing on new model intros.

See manufacturers ranked by sales in 2002 in Germany:

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Yes, VW is tops by far, but look who is no. 2! And look by how far the no.

3, Opel (GM), trails Mercedes.

Merc and BMW are volume manufacturers. Niche producers/brands are, e.g. Bentley, R-R, Aston-Martin, Morgan

Aren't the Germans good at stats? I wish I could find similar for the UK.

For the UK I have some figs for 2003 to Aug.

Ford (excl Land Rover & other Premium Brands): 248 000 Vauxhall: 209 000 Renault: 121 000 Peugeot: 120 000 VW (excl Audi, Skoda, SEAT): 111 000

No data by model found.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

See below.

DAS

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Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

In news:3fd8387c snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

For the crankshaft to be connected to the wheels at any time presupposes the absence of any transmission with a Neutral. LOL

Reply to
Philip®

In news:3fd8387e snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Sensible: Huw's viewpoint. LOL (1) A tractable (forgiving against lugging) engine that produces 75% of maximum torque at 1000 rpm is only necessary if you have limited torque multiplication thru the gearbox. I noticed in looking over charts of several BMW, Mercedes, and VW TDI diesels that maximum torque is typically found in the 1900-2300 rpm range, after which torque falls quickly in some as horsepower rises while in others torque rises quickly to a lower level but persists across a wider rpm range before ending sharply just before maximum horsepower. So it behooves the diesel driver to know if his engine behaves like the former or latter group.

Huw... you would be AMAZED how many people (who should know better) believe low end torque is a product of heavy flywheels typically associated with diesel. The inertia a heavy flywheel provides lasts for only a second ... but that is what impresses the "seat of the pants" drivers.

Revisit (1) The automotive examples I looked at suggest an over rev condition by going that high except... on engines where horsepower and torque are more equal. AS you lower compression, the mechanical safe limit of the engine (piston speed) rises. With electronics, turbocharger boost can be tapered down as rpm rises.

The "need" for a flat toque curve is VERY application specific. In a turbocharged semi truck diesel... 80% of max torque at 1200 rpm with a flat, quick rise to the max engine speed of 1800 rpm is what's provided from 11 liters. In a 250 cc naturally aspirated gasoline motorcycle you need a box full of gears and all the torque you can get ... which will likely be over a 3,000 rpm range (8,000-11,000 rpm) with maximum horsepower at 16,000 rpm. The wonder of reduction gearing saves the day if the driver is not fearful or recalcitrant about rpm and gear changes.

Reply to
Philip®

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