Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

They use huge amounts of arable land to plant sugar cane for ethanol production while children die from hunger...

Using fertile land to power automobiles is the dumbest thing a country can do.

As a Brazilian who's owned 3 alcohol-fueled cars, I have an idea of what I'm talking about.

Reply to
Neo
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Why are all cars banned circulation indistinctively, Diesel included? Some cities, as Milan, have sooth issues and Diesel engines are more of a problem in this regard than gas engines.

Reply to
Neo

As I said, thoughtlessly paying more for a Diesel and getting nothing out of it...

So your point is that lemmings can't be wrong, right? :-)

That's my point.

Which was a tough engine for MB's commercial light trucks used in a car...

So now you make excuses for Diesel being a slow hog? :-)

European models sell very slowly. The highest selling European brand is VW, but at about 5% of the market. Some Japanese cars sell very well (Toyota, Honda, Nissan), mostly in the mid-size category (large-car, D and E categories in Europe).

Almost none. I think that 1.6 is the smallest engine that any car selling significantly has, and that's for the compact and sub-compact categories. Mid-size cars have either a big I4 (2.4 to 2.5l) or more typically a V6.

You may shun that it's not important to you, but that only explains what I've been trying to tell you all along: Diesel engines are less refined and have inferior performance to gas engines and performance and comfort is more important to Americans than to Europeans. Different priorities, different cars. But I still think that America got a better deal than Europe... ;-)

Reply to
Neo

Even better. I've never seen the state's pen solve something without creating something else worse than what it proposed to solve... ;-)

Reply to
Neo

manufacturers,

turbocharged

Is it not supercharged. Not that it matters if turbo's are correctly configured.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

country

Would it be better if they lived without the income from sugar cane? What is the difference if the income comes from sugar cane for ethanol compared with helping to provide a bigger surplus of commodity food crops?

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Yes, but how that power is available does. An engine whose power over RPM increases logarithmically is hardly a joy to drive...

Reply to
Neo

Yeah, right. That's not what I noticed in the Scenic 1.9 TDi I rented last time I was in Europe...

True.

No, it doesn't. Diesel may do well in heavy traffic or urban traffic, but on the highway they they are dead slow.

The ideal torque curve is flat, that's what every engine designer looks for. The Diesel is just not friendly to manipulations of its torque curve due to its slow combustion.

Reply to
Neo

I think his point is THEY DON"T RAISE FOOD to feed the kids, they raise sugar cane to power their cars instead, The money from it's sale cannot be used to buy food IF they don't grow the food to sell in the first place...

Reply to
Steve W.

You clearly do not understand the power and torque curves and have absolutely not driven a diesel and petrol BMW back to back as I have. Most people who buy these cars try both petrol and diesel versions. Very many now choose the diesel. About half do not. The performance of cars fitted with modern diesels is amazing, to the point that very many 'sport' and Coupe and drop tops are now fitted with diesels at an increasing rate.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

So many words without saying anything about facts, just your own opinion about yourself...

Trounces??? Don't you think that it's disputable?

I doubt it. I've seen several fads come and go and the rise of Diesels in Europe looks like them, smells like them and behaves like them. Time may prove me wrong, but so far it's been a text-book fad.

Only when accelerating from a as slow speed as 30, for if accelerating from 50 it's a slug...

I've said it before: Diesel is the only way for Europeans to access to a high-torque engine without having to sell their first-born to slavery...

As I said, from a slow speed. Heck, one of my cars with this engine

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faster than my other car with this one
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town, even being 200lbs heavier, but on the highway the storyis quite different. So, figures don't lie, but don't tell the wholestory. The story happens between idle and red-line and the story lineis called "torque curve".

Your explanation finishes with a non-sequitur...

You had a Physics test at high school today? :-D

Reply to
Neo

Hogwash. It's got the same sulfur content as EU, 500ppm. Yes, Sweden has one at 10ppm and so does the UK for a few big urban areas, but that's BECAUSE of the high percentage of Diesel cars. IOW, it's part of the problem.

Weren't you saying "how things are", but now talks of a hypothetical future?

Which oil company of ours? Shell, Exxon?

No, it's because they're not the product of devilish executives, but the conclusion of cost-concious engineers on both sides of the Atlantic. Believe me, there's no "oil conspiracy", Mulder... :-)

Reply to
Neo

rented

traffic,

Here speaks the voice of nil or outdated experience OLO.

Not true.

The Diesel is just not friendly to manipulations of its

Absolute rubbish. It is fairly obvious that you do not understand the relationship between the power and torque curves. A flat torque curve will ensure an engine that has little resistance to increasing load and which has high power at high revs and a steady, if not linear, decline in power with declining revs. This is good for top end performance but is far from being a 'pulling' or torquey engine and may be a bit peaky at the extreme. In contrast, what we do not want, but historically sometimes got, from a diesel engine is a torque curve that drops off a cliff below the point of maximum torque. This has, of course, been almost totally eliminated from the modern diesel by high pressure injection [partly] and full authority injection control, but mostly by the 'variable nozzle' turbochargers now almost universally fitted. There is one exception which I have tried that, despite all the technology, does have somewhat of a delay accelerating from idle under load. This is the 2.2litre Mercedes engine which otherwise goes like a bat out of Hell.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

There is no shortage of food. There is a shortage of income to buy food. The farmer will grow food if there is an income to be derived from it. The issue of growing industrial crops is not linked to food production other than both being cultivated by farmers. Your argument could also be used to attack the growing of all food for export.

Huw

Reply to
Huw

Interesting change of reaction to some facts...

Have checked under your bed or closet for some frightening gas-monster? :-D

Better than their former self, yes. But still a far cry from the best gas engines, which, by the way, also get better and better.

I'm not there...

As I said, EU Diesel has 500ppm of sulfur, just like in the US. EU tried to lower it to 350ppm, but it only happened in Germany and in the UK. Most of the biggest countries in the EU, like France and Italy, still use an even worse Diesel, with up to 2000ppm of sulfur. So much for your European superiority...

Have you checked how much of each size each one emits?

Nope. Even FAP-equipped Diesel engines emit orders of magnitude more particulates than gas engines.

You may not know, but there's benzene in Diesel too... No, there are no nutty oxygenates, so don't try to drink it...

No, it's made from methane, a by-product of the refining process, but also present in natural gas.

Ahem, that would be ethanol. I see have no clue what you're talking about...

And let's not even start with using fertile land to produce fuel additives instead of food...

Who told you the things you accepted apparently at face value? Do you really believe in demonizing the oil industry? Do you also believe that Bill Gates made a pact with the devil?

Methanol is produced by oil refineries, but then again you have no clue what methanol is, believing one can grow it... :-)

Many substances are toxic and used without any problem, like the mercury in your fillings. Just because lead was a known toxic metal, noone knew that it would end up harming humans if burned in engines.

Your assumption of bad intentions in history is amazing, yet typical of Europeans, where it seems that the latest fad is to judge the past according to what is known currently. IOW, revisiosism.

Then try to defend the truth through facts, not your assumptions about others' intentions. Stop demonizing and start argumenting.

"The most polluting"? Like there were studies of MTBE in gasoline BEFORE it was chosen? How about you refraining from reversing the time line of the facts? Oh, the humanity...

Just check your facts straight. "My" Diesel is no worse than "yours", but you have to breath more of it due to more Diesel cars... ;-)

Reply to
Neo

How so? You tend to hide behing your opinion as if it were self-evident. It's not, how about some facts?

What I said was out of a table of EU fuel consumption. What did you say then?

Reply to
Neo

According to Audi, the FSI gets 51MPG on the highway and the TDI,

61MPG. So, yes, my mistake, within 15%, not 10%.

Is this the point you wanted to make? Fine, pick any number between 1 and 10 and it'll be only yours, forever.

Reply to
Neo

And what does the T mean still used in most Diesel models?

Reply to
Neo

But then it depreciates more because most people don't like Diesel cars. Among other reasons, because not every gas station sells them.

But this should change. Diesel engines work very well for twoing due to their low-end torque and it may earn some market share in full-size trucks.

At least in theory. Ford is said to put a V6 Diesel in the F150, which can only have V8 gas engines. Thus, a meager V6 doesn't bode well for the future of Diesel for Ford...

GM has a heavy-duty, common-rail, multi-valve, turbo-charged 8.1 V8 with 500ft.lbs of torque and over 300HP, but it's so expensive that it's only used to those who really, really need its characteristics.

Reply to
Neo

Not so. It's not a by-product of refining. AAMOF, one would get more gallons of gas per oil barrell than of Diesel, being a heavier fuel. So much so that even though it's more efficient when used, it's lower yield per barrell offsets any gain that could come from that. IOW, that noone gets in illusions that fewer barrells would have to be bought from the Arabs were Diesel used more in cars.

Reply to
Neo

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