Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

Obviously, this is 2003, not 1915. Go to a speed shop and using current vernacular, ask the counterman to show your a "supercharger." See what they hand you. LOL.

Again we have a US-centric view. Ask the same question in a speed shop almost anywhere else in the world and the counterperson will ask you which type you want.

Dan

Ask Mercedes to describe a kompressor. I can't help if the rest of your world plays lose with the definitions. ;-)

From the MB C-Class e-brochure I cut the following information.

"supercharged four in the C230 Kompressor"

C230 KOMPRESSOR ENGINE Supercharged and intercooled for maximum responsiveness,the 1.8-litre four in the C230 Kompressor models makes a robust 189 hp and 192 lb-ft of torque. Variable valve timing endows it with an exceptionally broad powerband for quicker acceleration and better passing performance. Sport Sedans and Sedans is a 6-speed stick that features a close-ratio gearset to help ensure fast, clean shifts. It ?s also got an extra-aggressive first gear for added zip off the line.

Variable intake-valve timing. Roots-type rotary-piston supercharger with air-to-air intercooler.

This information proves part of what both of us are saying, ie a supercharger can be a mechanically driven Roots-type. It does not disprove what Huw and I have been saying, which that a "turbocharger" is also a supercharger.

Please refer to the following:

Wherein it states: ""Turbocharging" is nothing more than the common phrase attached to the use of a turbine-driven centrifugal supercharger"

Just the first google hit I got.

Dan

posted:

construction

indicates

Yes, cheques are great as long as they are not bouncy.

Got to keep money circulating or it goes mouldy LOL.

Huw

Quite often as it happens. 'Finance' is a wonderful tool.

Huw

"Dan Gates" wrote> >

On this, the UK shares US terminology. No depends whether we call intercooling that or aftercooling or chargecooling though.

Huw

The link also shows (next paragraph) as a given that a "supercharger is mechanically driven" while a "turbocharger" is specifically turbine driven. It's of tangental interest that (mechanically driven) superchargers were previously known as "blowers" and that their origin back in the mid 1800's was to pump water. I do find disagreement in the link's assertion that turbochargers take no power to drive. The ever increasing exhaust back pressure from high boost pressures is a "loss." But up to that point, it's a net gain, obviously.

As a broad description, yes, both super-charge the intake air. But when you go to order parts, supercharger gets you a mechanically driven blower and turbocharger gets you a turbine driven blower. :-)

In news:3fd0df55 snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

"We" use "intercooler". Intercoolers are exclusively associated with exhaust driven superchargers (more commonly known as turbochargers) for some reason that excapes me. ;-) Thinking about it.... a turbocharger is small but really needs a bulky intercooler and plumbing whereas the larger supercharger needs no intercooler because a supercharger imparts no heat (by comparison).

Not correct. Neither turbo nor supercharger impart any significant heat to the air flow from mechanical parts. It is the act of compression which produces the heat. Quite an amazing rise in temperature really. Any form of gas compression will result in the same heat rise. Think of an air-conditioning system where the expansion causes cold and the compressor results in heat. From this example you can see that it works both ways i.e. that compression heats gas and expansion cools.

There is no significant difference in the air temperature increase from a turbo compared with a supercharger.

Huw

"Huw" wrote

. It is the act of

I should have mentioned the most obvious and topical example of compression heat which is, of course, the compression ignition engine LOL.

Huw

In news:3fd1df7c snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Technically correct regarding compression. The turbocharger pump does experience a heating cycle that feeds on itself. With compressed air temperatures in the 250-350 degree range, the pump housing does retain heat until boost pressures subside. I have had the rude awakening of brushing up against the pump side of a turbocharger and .... I won't do it again! The issue with compressed hot air is that it is less dense than were it compressed and relatively cool.

In news:3fd1e607 snipped-for-privacy@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com, Huw being of bellicose mind posted:

Hehehhe. But you didn't mention it because there is a substantial heat curve difference between compressing air to 8-10 psi and compressing air to the typcial 20:1 (what is that.... 350 psi?) found in most diesels.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough. Like many things in life there is no black-and-white answer. Turbo on petrol can give a benefit in certain circumstances but, if there were an across-the-board advantage, I think we would see more of them, even in Europe. As there isn't, we don't, a point underlined by Huw.

IIRC BMW did offer turbocharged petrol/gas engines at the top end a decade or two ago but dropped the idea. (Wasn't the first 745 a turbocharged 735 or something like it?)

DAS

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In news:3fd1f99a$0$7359$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

Huw has given several long term examples of very good (tractable) turbo petrol cars. Turbos "over here" are marketed as performance items .... not a necessity. From the early '80's that I know of, BMW has been of the mind that turbos belong on diesels. End of statement. This does not preclude BMW from building turboed petrol cars, only a statement of their commitment.

Irrelevant. We're talking practical, road-going vehicles.

DAS

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For instance my son calls " a ramp" a cylindrical skating construction, a ramp in their terminology is called "the riser". And stereo has become something lo-quality radio receiver with a CD or MC player.

Helar

In news:3fd322d5$0$7370$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

Au contraire, DAS. The highest performance example showcases the effectiveness of forced air charging.

Except for the heat of compression, which, if you overdrive the thing enough, is massive, but then again if you cram that much air in, cooling the air isn't going to be your biggest problem |>)))

Dan