Synthetic oil in hybrid

Nope, not my opinion. All independent testing on synthetics versus non-synthetics in non-high performance engines, operated in moderate climates has shown the same thing.

If you have a high-performance engine, or operate the vehicle in extremely cold temperatures, then synthetic is advisable.

Advantages of Synthetic

----------------------- Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates. Synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is better (in theory) than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine.

The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate the benefits of synthetic oil from high performance engines (or engines operated in very cold climates) onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.

Extended Change Intervals

------------------------- Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages, still becomes contaminated.

Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.

API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP

------------------------------------ Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection.

Unfortunately, some marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Amsoil

------ Amsoil actually makes some good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if you could buy them in a store, their XL-7500 synthetic would be a legitimate alternative to Mobil 1.

Amsoil didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.

After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG, or extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high performance engines, operated in moderate climates. But there isn't one. There's anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by companies like Amsoil which have never been validated, etc.

Of course there probably have been plenty of studies that were done but not published because they didn't have the results that the company paying for the study wanted.

mpg

What about BMWs test showing almost no wear, what about 2 stroke oils where several manufacturers allow a leaner mix with synthetic. I know one lawn maintenance co here that runs about 300 machines and states they have cut maintenance on machines by 30-50%. I think results are out there. True the biggest benefit is racing, but here it goes to

-20f. Motors are made so well today compared to the 60s-70s before CAD and computer machining that tolerances are tighter, today 200000+ on a motor is not unusal and the car is often junk at 100000, true most wont benefit. But motors cost to much to replace and I see a mpg increase.

The problem with these anecdotes about 200K miles on synthetic is that there are also anecdotes about 200K miles on conventional oil, and tests that also show very little wear. I think what many people don't realize is that conventional oil isn't pumped out of the ground and then bottled for sale. The base stock is different, but both are highly engineered products.

The synthetic base stock is a benefit for high-performance engines, engines operated in extremely cold climates, and for vehicles where the manufacturer specifies extended change intervals. But you've got a lot of people throwing money away using high-priced synthetics in regular engines, in temperate climates, with the same 5000 mile oil change interval used for conventional oil. You've got a bunch of Amsoil sales people trying to promote this ridiculous waste of money, which is bad enough, but what's worse is those that are using non-API approved synthetics with excessive levels of ZDDP which harms the catalytic converter.

If you can get a 2% increase in fuel mileage, then the cost difference is neglibable. Calling Mobil 1 a ridiculous waste of money is a ridiculous statement to make (and mathematically incorrect).

*** Sure Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy FAQ: How much can I save with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy? Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy oils deliver up to 2 percent fuel economy improvement and can save drivers over $400 on gasoline over the life of their vehicles. That=92s a savings of about six cents per gallon of fuel. A

*** Look at the first of Castrol Syntech's claims:

Key Benefits * No leading motor oil provide more horsepower (10W-30 as tested vs. leading competitive 10W-30S) * SYNTEC provides superior protection against deposits. Corrosive particles such as acid, soot and oxidized fuel fragments can cause costly damage to critical engine parts. * SYNTEC contains a Powerful Additive Package that neutralizes corrosive particles, preventing them from grouping together and forming sludge. * Neutralizes acids in your engine that can cause rust and corrosion on vital engine parts such as cylinders, bearings and hydraulic valve lifters. * SYNTEC meets the world's toughest gasoline engine protection requirements. * SYNTEC provides Stability & Endurance under extreme conditions (heat, load, speed) that can cause conventional oils to break down. * SYNTEC delivers the ultimate performance under high-temperature conditions: unsurpassed protection against volatility burn-off and viscosity increase. * SYNTEC can be used with confidence in every gasoline engine passenger car, new or old, regardless of oil previously used. * SYNTEC is fully compatible with all conventional and synthetic oils. * SYNTEC offers a level of protection that Outperforms All Leading Conventional Oils, passing severe industry torture tests.

LOL, is 2% the current claim for Mobil 1? I've seen claims on Amsoil web sites ranging from 5% to 15%, all with nothing to back up the claims of course.

At least for Mobil 1 the claims are more modest. Some people report 1-2 MPG less with Mobil 1, some claim 2-2.3% more MPG. The reality is that none of these anecdotes are valid. You'd have to test the MPG in a lab on a test track with remote control that keeps the acceleration et al the same on all runs. You'd also need to precisely measure the fuel volumes (more than just where the gas pump shuts off automatically). You'd have to run the engine in identical environmental conditions as well. Also remember that actual mileage is dependent on far more than just internal friction of the engine components during the short time when the synthetic is at a lower viscosity at start-up. The aerodynamics don't change.

Tests were against non synthetic, extendended change is everyday here or listed as Severe Duty is what 80% of the US drives. Amsoil is a scamerrs paradise

The extra cost of synthetic oil is typically about $20 more than conventional oil (assuming 5 quarts of oil) at a discount store. Your claims that this is a ridiculous waste of money are absurd.

Based on my experience and the experience of others (what you call anecdotal), a 2% improvement in gas mileage is commonly achieved. I don't have to test it in a lab to know it is correct. Testing it in a lab is a ridiculous waster of money.

Why do you think that? There is absolutely no evidence that synthetic oil provides better fuel economy or longer engine life (other than in high performance engines or in very cold climates).

And others have had worse mileage or no change. After all these years of synthetics, surely some manufacturer would have some real data--but they don't. Just vague claims of "up to 2%." Could be 0% could be negative. It would cost Mobil or Amsoil very little to run a real test on a track that would end any speculation about MPG differences, and would greatly increase sales of synthetic oil if a real difference in MPG were shown. But of course this would shatter the myth if they ever publicized the results of such a study.

LOL, enough said!

Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates, nor has any mileage benefit ever been proven.

It's one of the biggest scams around, selling people a more expensive product, that was designed for a specific purpose, that they receive no benefit from.

Synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear, increase gas mileage, or extend the life of the engine. At least no oil manufacturer, and no independent testing agency has ever proven any of these claims. At least Mobil stopped promoting extended change intervals with Mobil 1, like they did when it first came on the market.

Because I have been using synthetic oil for the past 10 years. I noticed an immediate difference as soon as I switched.

Admittedly, if you have an older American car built with engine tolerances that are very loose, synthetic oil will not make much of a difference. But even newer American cars these days have decent engines and they benefit from synthetics, although I can only speak from experience using Japanese cars.

You seem intent on saving the world from spending $20, and expect everyone to spend millions to so tests to prove that it worthwhile.

I think its more like an extra 15$ for me to get better mpg, and BMWs test showed little wear with the synthetic.

These claims are always anecdotal evidence, never controlled tests. The claims for Amsoil are the most amusing. 2.3%, 4.5%, 5%, 5.7%, 8.2%, 15%,

24%, just choose any one, from any Amsoil dealer's web site, because they're all fictional.

Geez, after all these years you'd think that there would be at least _one_ controlled test that compared equal viscosity synthetic to mineral base stock. Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the results weren't favorable to the company paying for them they were never released.

Even Mobil 1 uses some great weasel words in their promotional material: "Fuel economy improvement is based on a comparison _versus those viscosity grades most commonly used_ and a _potential_ 2 percent fuel economy improvement. Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside temperature, driving conditions and _your current engine oil viscosity_.

If synthetics really did provide a measurable MPG increase then every car manufacturer would be using them at the factory and requiring their use. Remember, both synthetic and "dino" oil consist of about 65% base stock and 35% additives. Only a limited number of engines in a limited number of climates receive any benefit at all from the synthetic base stock.

These synthetic oil manufacturers market their products to those that receive no benefit from them with the attitude that it's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money. What's even worse is that those that are taken in won't admit it even when it's proven to them!

Since you are a person who demands proof of everything, I challenge you to back up your statement and provide one shred of evidence to prove that for every test that was conducted on the subject, the results were hidden because the results were not favorable in showing increased gas mileage for synthetic oil.

As I already mentioned, there is no test that will hold true for all engines, because some engines already have so much wear, or the design tolerances are so loose, that synthetic oil does not provide much of a benefit (of course these engines are so crappy to begin with that fuel mileage is the least of their problems).

If someone is not willing to spend $20 dollars extra to try synthetic oil for themselves and observe the results (what you call anecdotal evidence) then there is not much I can say in response (however I do think the best time to switch is when a car has about 5,000 to 10,000 miles on it.

Cute. Turn the argument around to demand proof that something doesn't work, rather than providing proof that it does work. Well just provide some documentation from an independent test lab that proves that gas mileage increased at all with synthetic oil. There are none. It's one unsupported anecdote after another.

It's really amusing to see someone buy a new car, calculate the MPG up until the first oil change, at 5000 miles or so, then calculate it again for the next 5000 miles and proclaim a huge advantage. MPG almost always increases by a significant amount as the engine gets broken in, and the oil has nothing to do with it. Maybe that's where those Amsoil dealers got their 25% figure!

So just take a new car with a tight tolerance engine, and run it alternately on the same viscosity oil with non-synthetic base stock and then with synthetic base stock. Surely Amsoil or Mobil could have afforded to do this.

Of course you do.

I am sure someone has done this, but not all engines are the same so to avoid law suits, the synthetic oil manufacturers don't make those claims anymore (even if it does increase fuel efficiency for 95% of vehicles).

You are the one who made a claim (that companies are doing the tests and hiding the results). I just asked you for proof of YOUR CLAIMS. But you can't, because you are nothing but a 2-bit troll. BTW, here is the exact text of your unsupported claim:

"Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the results weren't favorable to the company paying for them they were never released."

He is a f*ck head, selling non syn oil, I get a benefit, so does anyone else using syn oil. This guy is a shit head who posts crap, tests are done and in but he wont want anyone to believe it, a true fucktard.

Very eloquent.

Obviously you have some links to independent tests that show some benefit in terms of MPG, _any_ benefit. We all must have missed them, so please post a link or a reference to them. Surely in the 34 years since Mobil 1 has been on the market, some independent entity must have done a test in a controlled environment that shows a measurable improvement in MPG.

If it makes you feel better, the anecdotal evidence showing a decrease in MPG with synthetics is just as unsupported as the anecdotal evidence showing an increase.

Do what you want with your money. The important thing is that it makes you feel better to spend it foolishly.