91 SR5 4x4 won't turn over

Righto.

I double-checked the relay I found under the hood (over the passenger fender in the fuse block box), and according to the awful Chilton manual I have, this *is* the starter relay. (I say awful because, for example, the picture that matches my truck is for the 4Runner, while the picture that is supposed to by my 1991 truck does not match what that block looks like at all.)

I would very much like a copy of the wiring diagram, even for future use. If I cannot find one online, I will email you with my mailing address, if you really don't mind putting it in the mail.

I just got back from PepBoys where I was going to pick up a new starter relay, but they have to order it, and it will cost close to $30 by the time they slap CA tax on it. I was thinking it was going to be $10 bucks. Not that I mind $30 if I know it will fix it, but if it doesn't I will have to buy other stuff, so I either want to find a cheaper vendor or test this relay somehow to see if it's actually bad. Thanks again for all of your help!

Reply to
Susan
Loading thread data ...

Everything works great. Horn, lights, radio, dash lights, everything. Battery was checked with a charger and tested fully charged. Is also a newer battery, and terminals are clean and tight.

Lights do not dim, even a little, when I turn the key to try to start it. No click. No crank. Silence.

When key is in ON position, all dash warning lights are on, like normal.

Excellent, solid ground off neg terminal to body chassis, but tried anyway as suggested and this wasn't it.

V6

Thanks for that. I will probably need to test these things, but since they are difficult for me to find and do, I am going to see if I can Google on how to check the starter relay... it would be REALLY NICE if that's all it needed! :)

Reply to
Susan

I found an auto parts place that thinks they can get the starter relay I need at their shop by 3pm today, and it was only $20, so I'm giving this a try. It still seems more likely to me than contacts (on either the neutral switch or starter), because the problem appeared all at once, and it seems like corroding or dirty contacts would cause intermittent problems as they are corroding or getting dirty. But if this isn't it, then contacts are next, and I might have to take it somewhere if that's the case, because I think the starter might be buried on this truck. (Though I will try again to find it.)

I hope I hope I hope this works! Will post the result.

Reply to
Susan

Take a look at the relay and just jumper the 2 contacts -= see if it cranks. If it does, might be the relay, might be the control circuit. If it doesn't crank, it's not the relay's fault.

Reply to
clare

Is that a 28300-16010 relay - green with 4 terminals? I believe the terminals are numbered 1-4 - looking at the bottom of the relay, with the "latch" side towards you, 1 ans 2 or on the right,

3 and 4 on the left. 1 and 2 are the coil - should be about 60 ohms, and 3 and 4 are the contacts. If you jump 3 and 4 in the socket the engine should crank.

Possible the terminals may be numbered 30, 85, 86, and 87

30 and 87 would be the contacts, and 85 and 86 the coil. Jumper 30 and 87 to test the starter.

Putting a testlight acros 85/86 or 1/2 the testlight should light when in crank position. If it does the control circuit (ignition switch and neutral safety switch) are OK. If they are OK and it cranks when jumpering 3/4, the relay IS your problem. If either the starter does not crank when jumpered or there is no power to the coil connections, it is NOT the relay.

Clear enough??

To test on the bench put 12 volts to 1/2 - it should click. If it clicks, an ohmeter across 1/2 should show 0 ohms (or very close) (closed circuit) when energized, and infinity (open circuit) when de-energized.

On that relay, it is virtually impossible to hurt the relay when testing with 12 volts. ONE PAIR will cause the relay to click. put + wire on one trminal, and touch - to all others in turn. You should get a click somewhere. If you don't, put the + on a different terminal and try again. Keep trying until you get the pair that clicks. The other 2 are the ones you want to jump in the socket.. If you don't get a click with any combination, the relay is FUBAR.

Reply to
clare

Thanks. Unfortunately I was already gone to pick up the part. It wasn't the relay's fault, because I bought a new one, and it didn't fix it.

Reply to
Susan

If the alarm circuit disables starting by opening the circuit that powers your starter relay it may well be the alarm IS causing the problem. As the OP suggested later in this thread to jumper the relay contacts to see if it will start; you can also see if the coil voltage is there by using a test probe or vom/dvm across the relay coil plug contacts. This will tell you if the alarm is preventing the voltage from getting to the relay coil. Hence- no click

Reply to
Anyolmouse

No, the original was a reddish-brown color (but I saw that most of these trucks had a green one).

I posted pictures of the old relay and the new one, and put letters on the terminals in hopes you could tell me what letter to match to which number, cause I'm not sure how to hold it or what part of the thing is considered the 'latch'.

formatting link

When you say to jump it in the socket, I assume you mean I should twist the little "locks" in the corners to lift off the plastic housing, then install it in the truck, then jump 3 and 4, right?

Okay, same test as above... soon as I learn which contact is which...

This is excellent to know!

So, I don't expect this result since I tried a new relay... but will try it just the same on the miniscule offchance both the old AND new relays are bad...

Will be soon! :)

Great! Will do this as soon as I'm done here and report.

Excellent.

This has been so very helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this out! I'm off to do this right now.

Reply to
Susan

Nevermind! I realized you either just jump the sockets without the relay, or insert a wire, then plug in the relay, but you don't take the relay apart.

I am keeping all these instructions for when I find the starter relay, because in trying this stuff tonight, I realized the relay I replaced is the HEADLAMP relay. When I jumped 3 and 4 the headlights came on. The plastic cover on this block also says "HEAD" over the relay I replaced, but I thought this was the starter relay because I don't have one at the kick panel, where the majority of them are (on this model, from what I understand). I figured the cover was mismarked. GUESS NOT.

And now I'm starting to wonder if the alarm IS involved, because I have to wonder if they took OUT the starter relay when they installed the alarm... like maybe because it has it's own relay built in. Because it is installed right there at the kick panel, where the relay should be.

I took some pics of the kick panel block, and made a note where the Chilton manual says the starter relay should be:

formatting link

Reply to
Susan

Adding to my own post...

Oldphart and Jeff might be right after all. I looked up the alarm, a VIPER 300, and downloaded the manual. It doesn't say anything about replacing the starter relay, but does have an optional starter bypass feature (I'm not sure mine has this), aside from the usual "will not start" if something is hokey.

But here's the thing... in trying to enter Valet Mode (as per the manual) I noticed something and realized it has been this way since all this started... the dash LED is on steady, verses the usual flashing about twice-per-second. I hadn't noticed because I haven't been using the alarm since I parked it in the backyard, so I wasn't paying attn to the dash alarm LED until tonight. But in thinking back, I realize that LED has been steady all along, instead of flashing like it usually does when operating normally.

According to the manual, when the LED is steady you are in Valet Mode. Oddly, the alarm should be "off" in Valet Mode, and the engine should start. When I take it out of Valet Mode, the LED goes off... but as soon as I arm the vehicle, the LED comes on and stays on steady again, rather than flashing 2x/sec like it should.

So, even if this isn't causing the problem (and I hope to god it is), the alarm *is* in some funkified state, cause the LED is not behaving like it normally does. I am studying the manual tonight, and will work on this first thing tomorrow! Even if it's NOT the problem, I need to eliminate the possibility by getting it working normally again, before I move on to other possibilities. But I hope Jeff and Oldphart are right!

But even if I reset the alarm and it fixes everything, I *still* want to know where the heck my starter relay is! :)

Reply to
Susan

The starter is located on the passenger side of the engine just in front of the bell housing for the transmission. You can get to the spade connector to jump 12v to it from the bottom of the vehicle. Just slide the spade connector off and touch the metal tab with 12v from the battery, the starter should engage the solenoid which will make the high current contacts and make the starter spin to crank the engine. This will verify your starter is good but if you aren't hearing any clicks when you turn the key I still think the problem is up at the alarm or in the starter relay circuit. If you ever need to remove the starter there is an access panel in the passenger side wheel well, you remove three bolts, slide the access panel out of the way and you can pull the starter out through there once you have it unbolted. Here is another thought regarding the alarm system. Try disconnecting your battery and then reconnecting it to see if that resets the alarm. If you have the wiring diagram for the alarm you should be able to find the two connections for the ignition kill feature. If you disconnect those two wires from the alarm and connect them together it will remove the alarm relay from the circuit, defeating the ignition kill feature. Your starter relay should be up in the driver side kick panel, up above the section you attached photos of. I have a 91 4x4 and my relay is way up there and toward the firewall.

Reply to
Handyman

Well it's easy to test a relay if you take it off. It's unlikely that it's the starter relay.

I'd suspect a starter cut-off relay if the alarm system has one, or it's possible that the alarm is wired into the electrical system in a way that no extra relay was needed to stop the car from starting (in our

1996 Camry the wiring harness for the after-market alarm/locks wired directly into the vehicle's wiring without any splicing, and it disables the starter). I had an after-market alarm in that Camry that would periodically decide not to disarm, and left my wife stranded. That P.O.S. "lifetime warranty" DEI alarm got torn out by me, and a more reliable one put in that's worked for the past ten years without a problem.
Reply to
SMS

I feel like such an idiot, but I cannot find the starter and I know what it looks like, because I have studied many photos of people taking it apart to replace the contacts. But many learned people have said now, that due to the lack of clicks, it likely isn't the starter anyway, so I am putting this on the backburner until more likely things have been eliminated.

Namely, the alarm, as you and many others have suggested, and the starter relay.

Good to know if it comes to this. Thanks.

I tried this today. Left both terminals off for 40 min, then re-connected. Alarm went crazy as it always does when con/disc the battery. But no joy afterwards.

I also unplugged the wire harness going to "the brain" of the alarm. Still did not start.

I am going to look for an installation manual for this Viper 300 right now. I found the instruction manual, but it doesn't say how it's wired.

If that starter relay is there it is seriously messing with me! The Viper has three huge modules down there, and then there's the cruise control module, so it isn't the easiest place to get clear line of sight, but I took more pictures to show you what I see, and I see nuthin'. I see a cable/wire going through the firewall... but no relay. There *is* a rubber protective mat attached to the firewall with clips... yours isn't behind that mat, is it?

Also, I am thrilled you have the 91 4x4 too, but is yours the M/T? This is the auto 3VZ V6, and from what I understand, it is extremely hard to work on, compared to the 22RE.

Am off to find wiring diagrams for the alarm...

Reply to
Susan

This alarm has never given me a moment's problem, but if it turns out to be the culprit and whatever the fix is is a PITA, it will also be history, though removing it will be a *real* PITA. Not just because of the gazillions of wires, but because the angle of working there kills the neck!! Would have to remove the front seat to make it easier for such a long job. Or take it to someone, but it would likely be expensive to remove it.

Reply to
Susan

Thanks to the help I got here, I was finally able to spy the starter tucked way up behind the wheel well. I used a wooden dowel and a hammer to give it some love taps, and the truck started right up!

That's the good news.

The bad news is I guess I will have to pull it sometime soon to replace the contacts so this doesn't happen again, right? Or do the "brushes" get stuck after sitting for 10 weeks like that? What would you good people recommend?

I can't thank everyone enough for their support, tips and input. I have learned so much that I'm sure will come in handy. I turned the truck off, as from messing with the alarm wires, the jkeyfob won't control the power locks now, so I need to figure that out, and clean my little Tonka Toy, then take it for a ride. I hope when I go to start it, it starts right up until I get a chance to do whatever needs doing. :) YAY!! I'm so happy.

Reply to
Susan (It Started!)

get a diagram and see. if it has mechanical parts, some switch cleaner may help. but get all the fobs right first!

Reply to
someone

Right... found a wiring diagram for the truck and power lock/unlock wires are blue/white and blue/yellow, if this diagram is accurate. But the harness on the alarm looks fine (inserted solidly). It could be some splices have become fnarkled while I pushed wiring around looking for a starter relay! Hopefully disconnecting the battery for 30 min will reset it, as the alarm is acting weird in other ways in ways. When I turn the it on, I get two weird clicks from the dash area, which I have never heard the alarm make before, and then the LED flashes like the alarm is on, but when I opened the door, nothing happened. Then a few minutes later, doing basically the same thing, I opened the door and the alarm DID go off, and the keyfob turned it off, but it's still not controlling the door locks. Not sure if maybe my keyfobs lost their programming or what. In the meantime I am off to read the Viper manual again so see if I can figure out what's happening while the battery sits disconnected...

But I am STILL HAPPY. :)

Reply to
Susan

I want to thank you again for this offer. I was able to find the 1993 wiring diagram online, happily. :)

Reply to
Susan

i think you need more info,,,,used to be i loved yamaha bike wiring until they started using britco's turn signals and started the lurking of the prince of darkness. be afraid, like totally!

Reply to
someone

From researching bebuilding the starter it became clear the rebuild is simple -- it's removing the starter that's not fun. I found excellent instructions for a 1991 4Runner 3VZE (everything should be the same as my truck for this job) here:

formatting link
...and I was tempted. After sleeping on it overnight, I decided to call the auto shop to ask what they charge, figuring if it was around $200 bucks, I'd save myself the aggrivation. (I was more worried about getting the starter BACK IN, as those retaining bolts are not easy to get to from the sound/look of it... I pictured myself on my back with a bolt precariously balanced on the end of a 2-foot extension, in a swivel joint, trying to line it up to start the first few threads, and hearing the CLINK as it drops down through the wishbones for the 40th time in a row...) They charge $225, so I dropped it off.

I'm not proud, but my truck is probably relieved.

Reply to
Susan

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.