least effort least throw clutch?

All trikes obey the laws of physics. Three wheels is just downright silly.

There's the answer. It all on paper. You won't be riding paper, bubba.

Answer the question: why do you want a trike? Do you think it's safer than a two-wheeler?

Can you back that up with some calcs or something (a+b=silly), or is it still just a subjective observation?

So...design is useless, and has no bearing on the performance of the product? Every bike you ever rode had most if not all of its components put down on paper before they were built. Besides, who's designing on paper any more? You get a lot more mileage as far as predicting performance out of a full 3D solid model. If the thing doesn't handle well and safely when it's built I'll hack it up and try again. But I'm confident enough that won't be necessary to start building. By your logic no one should ever build anything because it might not work. After all, its just 'on paper'.

Which of the two questions would you like me to answer? I want this trike to prove or disprove my ideas about trike design. I want it because I was able to finagle a tubing bender, notcher and digital protractor into the deal. I want it because if it works I'll be able to sell it for more than I've got into it. I want it for the sheer joy of building something again, to pit myself and my abilities against design challenges like the one that started this thread. What is your problem? Out to personally save the world from trikes? You sound like the last Mac guy I talked to.

I'm beginning to think I want a trike just to irritate opinionated bikers.

Walt

On Wed, 26 May 2004 14:42:51 -0700, "WJ" ran around screaming and yelling:

clarification....opinionated *Harley* riders...i am a "biker" yet i say ride what you want, as long as you ride...i like em all....i really want a Harley, but im pretty happy with my sportbike too...loved my old honda "wanna-be" cruiser....just ride...enjoy building and testing it...there is something really fullfilling and satisfying about building something yourself then enjoying it... JT

You might not need the vacuum pump. If you're over cammed and running dual IDFs, you might need it then, but at least test for good vacuum first before investing in the pump.

• you probably knew this, but thought I'd add the disclaimer *

For a time, I was wondering how to add power assist to a beetle. I'm glad I found that, too :)

I managed to carry a case of beer, 24 glass bottles on my lap.. on a

whole thing on top of the gas tank..

If you needed a break, you could have stopped by my house so I could have lightened the load for you. :o)

Bill Berckman

Not even all Harley riders, evidently. I got curious as to why jjs wants to consign me to rec.motorcycles.harley. He took his anti-trike dogma there one time and got a somewhat cool reception. 'Couldn't win any converts, so now they're all bunch of heathen trike-huggers too.

Walt

Are you trying to tell me that your computer model is more valid than real life personal experience? You are going to recapitulate all the engineering neccessary on your computer? Personal experience is not neccessary?

Are you trying for the Nerds chapter of the Darwin Awards?

My point is that a Trike is a bad idea for the person who secretly is afraid of motorcycles and thinks a trike would be easier and safer to ride, and it is _not_. That fact might be born out in real life, on the road, and possibly to some dire consequences.

Are we clear, now?

On Thu, 27 May 2004 06:36:34 -0700, "WJ" ran around screaming and yelling:

Walt i should have actually been more clear in my post...i was not saying "Harley riders" meaning all of them, just the majority of them are "hardcore" about their bikes....and all others "suck"...LOL...i did not mean JJS specifically or any ONE person....just as a whole Harley riders can be "hardcore"...i do know many harley riders that are cool...i myself will be a 'harley rider" some day and i promise not to look down on those that are exactly like me...heh...

On Thu, 27 May 2004 09:24:12 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@xyzzy.stafford.net (jjs) ran around screaming and yelling:

it is pretty widely known that two wheels are good and four wheels are good...and that three has a tendency to understeer and "tip", but heck why is it a bad thing that Walt wants to build one and thinks he can build a "better" one? ya know? JT

"WJ" wrote

What software do you use? Just curious.

Have you seen this site?:

-- Scott

I use Inventor, mainly.

Oh yeah; the Swedish Trike Garage. There are many neat and beautiful rides there. Most of them have an interesting mid-engine setup with an empty transmission case added to get the engine out front a little more, and are run without the fan and shroud. They do a lot better with trikes in Europe than we generally manage here in the States. My second trike will be along those lines.

Walt

I was just thinking about this, and I don't know if that assist unit is a full solution to do what you want. Take for a moment and think about the volume of fluid the clutch lever would push. Let's say with $X amount of squeeze on the lever you can generate $Y amount of pressure to the slave cylinder that isn't moving. What if the slave cylinder (now a bug one) requires 60cc of fluid to move it to full deflection and the (Honda GoldWing?) clutch MC only does 10cc? With the assist, you may have helped get the user input squeeze down, but if the volume developed isn't enough to depress the clutch, the bore size of the MC might have to be increased to match to the volume required by the slave (user squeeze issue aside).

That's true. The bore of the master cylinder has to be carefully matched to the slave for the amount of travel/leverage you want. The VW slave cylinders I've seen are pull-type, with a long skinny cylinder. That means I'm probably going to loose some mechanical advantage, and end up trying to push a bigger master cylinder than a hand lever really wants to. Evidently, on the Amizonis motorcycle the VW diaphragm clutch is actuated by cable, by hand (no hydraulics), and its not a problem. I'm still trying to find out for sure, but it looks like the clutch setup I want is a Brazilian diaphragm unit. For me, the question gets more interesting. I've never seen a hydraulically operated clutch on a motorcycle; all the on-the-handlebar master cylinders are for the right hand. That means a conventional motorcycle clutch lever and cable down to the frame somewhere, and then a conversion to hydraulic. So then I can choose from many possible master cylinders, some with power assist, but it also adds a bit of complexity, and I much prefer simple . Still, I'm thinking it's the way to go.

For me, the clutch issue has become the minor one compared to figuring out a good, foolproof method of foot-shifting the VW tranny. I've got most of the device designed to translate the H pattern of the tranny to a progressive motorcycle-style shifter. I do not want the rider to have to go through any weird foot acrobatics to run through the gears. The mechanism really isn't that complex, but it's motion is... it's got me laying awake at night running the model through the action in my head, trying to work out the kinks.

Cheers, Walt

Then you haven't looked very hard. Just for starters, look at the current Ducati, BMW, and Triumph motorcycles. You are building a State-of-the-Art trike and you don't know shit about what's already been done? Research first.

my 95 Honda 1100 shadow has a hydraulic clutch, they were around before that. I agree with John at.least do a little research David

On Sat, 29 May 2004 23:09:03 -0400, "David" ran around screaming and yelling:

agree with John at.least do a little

so does my 93 zuki, but it also has a clutch cable that actuates the "master cylinder" for the clutch....the op was talking about handlebar mounted "master cylinders" for the clutch....some do have it, but most don't... JT

Beneath my rants about this trike thing is a concern for the rider. It's fine with me if he builds another POS, but I don't want him to hurt himself. His confidence is sorely misplaced.

I agree with John at.least do a little

Yes I am aware as to what the poster was referring to. Mine has a master cylinder on the handle bars and a hydraulic line, NOT A CABLE, going to the actuating rod in the side cover. So that means that I have two master cylinders on my handle bars, one for the front brake on the right hand side and one on the left for the clutch. David