tunnel to pan connection

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:25:10 -0500, "johnboy" scribbled this interesting note:

I concur.

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

.................I don't know where Remco lives but there is a real scarcity of solid, rot-free bugs in the NE and upper midwest regions of the US. What few are out there are too expensive unless you want to take out a bank loan. I'm not saying that it's a good idea to spend a tremendous amount of time and money on a seventies era bug but if he's made the decision to go ahead with this project, why should any of us be concerned? I had to spend four days and about $500 in traveling expenses to bring my '77 back to NY from Colorado and if I didn't know and trust the seller, I don't think that I would have done it. Without traveling across the country inorder to get a solid bug, I would be faced with this same dilemma of whether to try to resurrect a rotted-out bug myself.

Anyhow, isn't part of the fun doing the resurrecting?

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:54:26 -0500, Michael Cecil scribbled this interesting note:

Tim, you saved yourself far more money by going halfway across the country to buy that bug than if you'd purchased a rotted out hulk best bought as a donor car.

Michael, as for the fun of resurrection, I'm not too sure about that. There are too many variables involved to make that determination for anyone but yourself. The level of ability of the owner, the facilities available, the amount of time available, local municipal laws and regulations, all this and more goes into how much fun it may, or may not, be.

I've said this time and again, if you want to get into antique cars, do the research and buy the very best example of the car you want that you can find and afford. Anywhere. I too have gone halfway across the country to buy a car. I've gone much shorter distances as well (as little as a few miles to a few hundred miles to as much as a thousand miles.)

The car in question needs completely rebuilt and it requires repairs never dreamt of by the original designers as they couldn't know how their design would hold up over decades of use, abuse, and neglect. It will require significant welding and auto body skills, paint skills, mechanical skills, electrical skills, and a large amount of determination. The learning curve is steep which is why you see so many "project" cars for sale.

Anyone can buy a rotted out shell of a Beetle for just a little cash. S/he can spend years accumulating the necessary skills and tools and supplies to build that car. S/he can spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on parts and supplies and thousands upon thousands of man hours putting it all together. In the end s/he will have, hopefully, a car s/he can enjoy owning and driving. Or the potential owner can be patient, look around (and I mean using a telescope if necessary), and in time a good car will come along that will cost a little more up front, but at the end of the project, thousands upon thousands of dollars and hours will be saved.

As most who read here know, building a car isn't like assembling a model. Once again, John Henry

tells thestory well. Even he, after finishing the '57, said he wouldn't do itagain, and although he's bought other VWs, he's stayed true to hisword. It is a big undertaking for a novice. I'm not exactly a noviceand I don't want to do a body off restoration, especially when the '59we have could be had, just a couple of hundred miles away, needingvery little additional work, for well under what anyone will spend tobuild up a rotted out Beetle. I understand that in areas where they approve of making cars dissolve that it is difficult to find anything over ten years old that might be roadworthy. But that does not mean a potential buyer has to settle for a car that has no pans, no heater channels, half the doors because the bottom half rotted off with the channels, etc., etc., etc. Tear into a car like that and far more damage will be found. Ask Scott about the cars he's cut up that would have made you folks in the north east cry. 'Round these parts there was no justification for keeping them since better examples are easily found. The cars he cut up were all daily drivers in comparison with the car in question in this thread. Sad? Not really. It is just using the available resources to their best effect. Scott (and I) have limited space, limited time, and the determination was made that those cars would take up less yard room if cut up, spare parts boxed up and stored away, and the rest put on the curb for the scrap metal guy (or the City-whoever got to it first) to pick up. If Steven in Arkansas hadn't bought it, that '68 Autostick we had was next on the list. Another week or two and that car would have been in small pieces. and a few boxes...

I suppose it all comes down to what is most important to the potential buyer. Do you want to learn a new hobby from the inside out? Do you have the time? Are your pockets deep? Then buy a project and enjoy yourself. But if you have a family, a job that takes up a fair amount of time, and anything resembling a social life, then you might want to re-think buying a car with that many problems. Be patient, buy a better one that requires far less, and enjoy life instead of a project.

Just one opinion on the subject...

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

"Tim Rogers"

You got one heck of a deal, too. Me thinks the Olde Hippie you got it from really didn't need the money - he made what, a cool million bucks from Microsoft?

That said, there are good locations to find reasonably rust-free Bugs, cheap. If someone wants to rent a transport, we can make some bucks.

It's a religious thing. Just ask my wife - While working on my various project vehicles, I spoke more holy names in passion than I did in the seminary.

Most bugs are "restored" using more Christian science ("Oh God, I hope it runs") than mechanical science.

..................I didn't ask and he didn't say but I'd guess that one million might be on the low side. I think he said something about writing part of Windows NT while I was at his house but my memory isn't too great. I just happened to be browsing RAMVA at the very moment that Earle posted that he wanted to sell his bug. My email went back to him in less than a minute and he kept his word to me about letting me have it even though it took at least a few months for me to get my act together and fly out to Colorado. Olde Hippie or not, Earle Horton is a great guy who stands by his word. There were at least a few others here who wished that they had been online at the right moment that day when he posted that he was getting out of the hobby.

Indeed true, and it is worth repeating, thus the quotation.

Thanks, Tim.

Connecticut -- Fairfield county, near the LI sound: Terrible area when it comes to snow, sleet, ice, rain and salt being used here and there.

There are not a whole lot of solid bugs around here one can buy for a reasonable price. (read "zero bugs") The ones that don't need pans and channels usually are already restored, since that is the first thing one needs to do to any bug, certainly up here. (why do all of that and then give up, right?)

On the other comments, saying it is a waste of time: Is replacing floors and channels that much harder than replacing floors or rocker panels on any other car? If so, that's gonna be an interesting challenge, then.

My only worry is actually having the time -- it might take a while to properly get it done. A lack of time will still not stop me, though.

Sjeesh, if we just give up because something is hard, we would have never put anyone on the moon nor communicate by means of PCs as we now take for granted, for that matter :)

I've lived there many years ago. It was pretty then.

Heh. Resurrecting a Bug from a pile of iron oxide ain't exactly pioneering work.

Think of how much you are willing to spend, and then see how much of that might be obviated by getting a better start.

It still is pretty, perhaps a little busier (NYC immigrants) since you left, if that was over a decade ago. Many people commuting to NYC made i95/Merrit parkway a daily nightmare. I work close and often telecommute so like it here -- it is just not a great climate for cars.

No, I wouldn't exactly consider this pioneering work either. So we agree it isn't particularly difficult, but just hard work?

It isn't exactly a "pile" of iron oxide either (but maybe our definitions are different). It has some pockets of rust, as far as I can see and that's exactly what I was trying to establish:

The pans are definitely bad - some holes under the pedal cluster and under the battery. I guess one could just replace two quarter pans, but I might as well replace both sides while I am here. Unless I find that the other side of the pans are magically in good shape, that's what will be done. Somehow the lip of the tunnel has some separated welds on the driver's side near the pedal cluster - most the material seems to still be intact, after some more probing around. Damage is superficial. Maybe it was a manufacturing defect of sorts. It looks like it can just be rewelded without too much trouble. Both heater channels need to be replaced, definitely. The driver side seems to be the worst off as just under the bottom door hinge part of the weld is gone as well -- it looks like about 1.5" needs to be cut out. I'll need to make or buy something that works there. One rusted through spot (about 2"x2") just above the driver's side rear fender that will need to be cut out and replaced - below all fenders everything looks fine, strangely enough. Some small superficial surface rust spots near the passenger headlight and a small spot on the roof. I have not taken the engine out to see what's going on in the engine compartment. Will do that soon and then also remove the body.

Unless you are willing to sell me a much better start for a good price, this seems to be a good way to go for me. :)

not the best example, John.... John H had very little "cash" in that car, compared to what it would take to buy it....and it seems some of the folks out there/here enjoy the "journey" as much as the destination....my time is valuable to me, but it is a small price to pay to complete a project and

*know* what has *really* been done(as you don't always know when buying) and that it has been done *right*....and as you state, this is just another opinion...

I

i too was online when he posted his "rant" about getting out of all things vw and that the first person to pony up the bucks(little bucks at that) could come get the bug.....but, despite its condition, when compared "pricewise" it would have been way more "expensive" for me to do as you did, than it would be for me to even repair a bug that needed the entire bottom..this thread started over a car that needs pans and chanels, and some of the doorpost...these are relatively simple repairs, and the parts are cheap and readily available...don't know why everyone is making such an issue of it....

{... about fairfield...}

If you know any Jalberts, they are probably my family.

Honest, I am not trying to be the doom and gloom guy, but I'd not be surprised if you needed more parts. Check the framehead, for example.

It's a damp trap. Also, if the drain tube from the fresh air vent in front of the windshield is missing or broken, rainwater leaks in and drains into the foot area.

I'd like to be able to afford to sell you my clean '72. I'm sure you would appreciate it. Motivation on my part is piqued - just got a partial medical bill for a bit over $19,000. Lets see how it goes.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:39:52 -0400, "Joey Tribiani" scribbled this interesting note:

Yet you make the point perfectly since for you it is worthwhile. You ain't no novice, if I may say so. And even if you enjoy the activity of building a car, then you must admit that the finished product will be better if you start with a better car as opposed to a rusted out shell.

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

On 10 Jun 2005 13:16:48 -0700, "Remco" scribbled this interesting note:

How far are you willing to travel and can you transport it back home once you get here...I mean there?

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

well that depends on the definition of "better" and "rusted out"...they do vary widely...of course i'm the one that stated "fixing" a car that has been baja'd is no biggie....i was severely beated here for that...but i still believe it...LOL.... in the terms of "better" i feel it is "better" when i do it myself, and *know* all is well....whether it be an engine or heater chanels....can't exactly see *inside* either to know all is well, and they can seem perfect from the outside....at this point all of the vw type 1's imported(legally) into the US are old....and most suffer from rust....fixing these cars, enthusiasts seem to go the extra mile to see to it that they last longer the second time than they did the first time....things like por15 and undercoating are standard operating procedure for most cars that have undergone reconstructive rust repair....so, really, NO i don't personally feel (necessarily) that a "project" will be "better" if you start with a 'better" car that is really of unknown condition in places you can't see....

............That bug was offered at $2200 with a low mileage Gene Berg 1679 that was by itself worth double the price. It was professionally painted a few years earlier and was/is a solid rust free bug. With the extra $500 for flying out there and then driving it 2000 mi. back to NY, I came out way ahead of where I would have been by doing all of that work myself.

BTW.........it still doesn't drip or burn any oil.

You just wait. I bought a bag of rust dust. One day I will restore it to a pristine Schwimmwagen and you'll be envious!