Type 1 pushrod tube seals - getting it right

All,

First the alternator takes a dump. Have the thing towed home, pull engine, replace alternator. Then the alternator pulley splits in two. Tow home a 2nd time, replace pulley. Now..it leaks oil. In late 2002 I pulled the engine and resealed the top-end and it has remained dry until now. So I pulled the engine again, and starting on the passenger side I removed the head and cylinders. My intent is to apply a new bead of RTV to the base of the cylinders, and replace the pushrod tube seals. Said pushrods are now sporting a fresh coat of FlatBlack.

What I am trying to figure out is the talk of the 'lip' on late model head castings that can create a problem for the pushrod tube seals. Bob Hoover posted a description about the 'lip' several years ago, which I re-read today, but honestly I haven't been able to figure it out. So, I picture myself being a pushrod tube, looking into the head. I see a tapered hole. The bottom of the hole on the head I pulled tonight has a vertical 'wall' at the BOTTOM of the pushrod tube hole.

Anyway, I took a picture. Is this the 'lip' that I should dremel down into a nice radius and then clean and reinstall the head? The engine was dry until I pulled it to change the alternator. The leak I think is a result of two pushrod tube seals that were brittle and me pushing and pulling on things during the engine removal that pushed the marginal seals over the edge. All this despite the fact that the seals I used in 2002 were the preferred 'white' style. Bummer. I have 16 new ones to install along with new tarboard. And the new transaxle mounts are in, thanks. ;-)

Since pulling my engine isn't something I like doing I'd prefer to seal this up right NOW and not have to mess with it again until the engine is at TBO.

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Yeah, the first picture is of my garage floor covered with engine. It's an unholy mess in there right now and I need to fix it RealSoonNow. Company showing up next week, any advice would be appreciated....

Chris

Reply to
halatos
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Dear Chris,

I see no evidence of leakage at the push-rod tube gaskets. The sealing surface is nice & clean and the lip that caused the trouble I wrote about some years ago is not evident in your pictures. And no, the edge you're pointing to in the second picture does NOT need to be Dremeled; it should seal just fine.

However... the four stays (or 'studs,' if you prefer) that are secured inside the valve gallery do not show any evidence of sealant. The holes -- and the washers that go into them -- should receive a light coating of sealant since the washer must provide an oil-tight seal. I've found it works best to apply the sealant to the eight washers and eight holes some time BEFORE installing the heads. This gives the sealant a chance to partially cure and prevents it from being squeezed out when the stays are torqued-up.

I don't think I can point you toward a reference saying these parts must receive sealant but the general rule is that ANY part subject to oil MUST receive sealant. Otherwise, it's going to leak. Such leaks are most evident when the engine is cold. As the engine heats up the heads will expand. That expansion will cause the washer to form a leak-free fit with the head... assuming the interface has been given a coating of sealant.

But as for leaky push-rod tubes, I saw no evidence of that in the pictures you've provided.

-Bob Hoover

Reply to
Bob Hoover

Hi Bob,

The reason there is no visible evidence is I already removed it :) I had already cleaned out the sealer from the lower head stays and the residue from the bottom of the head casting.

The 'leak' was from the passenger side of the block, that entire portion of the casting would be wet after a drive. I could clean it all off, go for a short drive, pull in the garage, take a look..no leak. Come back an hour later..I see oil. Then the oil would collect onto the area where the sled- tin screws normally go into the block and from there drip off onto the floor. When I removed the head and was able to finally see the top of the pushrod tubes, two of them were covered in a mix of dirt and oil. In addition, two of the seals were hardened.

Okay good thank you.

Yeah, I cleaned that out. Last time I put this together I used the orange high-temp RTV, the stuff that smells like...vinegar. I won't be using that again having read that it can attack the metals, this time I'm going to try the blue 'sensor safe' RTV for sealing the cylinders to the block and the lower head-stay washers to the head.

Case in point..when I did this job last time, as I've described..I put everything back in, drove for a few days and went to take a look to see if I had caught everything. I saw a small bit of fresh oil coming out from the rocker arm studs on the inboard side of the head. I didn't have any O-rings handy when I assembled the engine, and I figured..there's just no way any oil can get between the head and the rocker shaft attachment points. Wrong. So I took the rocker shafts back off, shot a bit of RTV into the 'hole' where the O-ring would normally go..and it has remained dry.

What I noted after removal of all of the sheet metal is that the alternator tower looked like it was leaking a bit from the back side, so I took it off and gave it a coat of paint and will re-seal it tonight. The top of the block, aside for the part directly behind the alternator stand, was dry. The oil cooler was dry. The drivers side of the engine is dry. Hopefully a properly sealed alternator stand, cylinders and new pushrod tube seals will chase the drips away.

Thank you...

Chris

Reply to
halatos

Did you measure the length of the pushrod tubes? And stretch them as needed? I think normally it should be 7.5". I forgot if that is total length or seal seat to seal seat on the tube.

I like the black RTV and I think that some RTVs don't handle the oil or heat as well as others. ;-) Not sure you really need the high temp stuff. AND for the pushrod tube seals I prefer the liquid sealant.

I like that you are searching out and repairing the leaks! 8^)

good luck with it! One out of many daves

The reason there is no visible evidence is I already removed it :) I had already cleaned out the sealer from the lower head stays and the residue from the bottom of the head casting.

The 'leak' was from the passenger side of the block, that entire portion of the casting would be wet after a drive. I could clean it all off, go for a short drive, pull in the garage, take a look..no leak. Come back an hour later..I see oil. Then the oil would collect onto the area where the sled- tin screws normally go into the block and from there drip off onto the floor. When I removed the head and was able to finally see the top of the pushrod tubes, two of them were covered in a mix of dirt and oil. In addition, two of the seals were hardened.

Okay good thank you.

Yeah, I cleaned that out. Last time I put this together I used the orange high-temp RTV, the stuff that smells like...vinegar. I won't be using that again having read that it can attack the metals, this time I'm going to try the blue 'sensor safe' RTV for sealing the cylinders to the block and the lower head-stay washers to the head.

Case in point..when I did this job last time, as I've described..I put everything back in, drove for a few days and went to take a look to see if I had caught everything. I saw a small bit of fresh oil coming out from the rocker arm studs on the inboard side of the head. I didn't have any O-rings handy when I assembled the engine, and I figured..there's just no way any oil can get between the head and the rocker shaft attachment points. Wrong. So I took the rocker shafts back off, shot a bit of RTV into the 'hole' where the O-ring would normally go..and it has remained dry.

What I noted after removal of all of the sheet metal is that the alternator tower looked like it was leaking a bit from the back side, so I took it off and gave it a coat of paint and will re-seal it tonight. The top of the block, aside for the part directly behind the alternator stand, was dry. The oil cooler was dry. The drivers side of the engine is dry. Hopefully a properly sealed alternator stand, cylinders and new pushrod tube seals will chase the drips away.

Thank you...

Chris

Reply to
One out of many daves

Bob,

What do you advocate using for the sealant? RTV?

Reply to
Leopold Stotch

Loctite 510, 515 or 518:

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Nice short links, eh? #:-]

J.

Reply to
P.J.Berg

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Most VW sealing chores are handled perfectly well with Permatex. I'm not sure what they call it nowadays; 3H or something like that. Usta be "Aviation-grade" Permatex. Comes in a little can with an applicator brush made into the lid.

RTV -- Room Temperature Vulcanizing -- is primarily used to form a compliant (ie, flexible) GASKET rather than being used as a sealant. In so far as I know Volkswagen has only recommended RTV once on its engines -- as a replacement for the paper gaskets used between the crankcase and the cylinder barrels. They may have specified it for use on the T4 or on some accessories but I've not run into it.

Volkswagen was one of the first companies to use gasket-less sealing, in that the parts were machined so well that they needed only a THIN coating of sealant to provide a leak-free fit. But in doing so they had to re-educate mechanics to convince them that a thin coat of sealant was all that was required; that room temperature torque values had to be quite small, and so forth.

-Bob Hoover

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Reply to
Bob Hoover

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I'll second that. RTV is lovely stuff for ensuring your tin-ware fits properly... which it seldom does. Those 'unimportant' little gaps here & there rob the engine of a surprising amount of cooling air. You could spend 40 or more man-hours making a set of tin-ware that really fits. Looked quite neat but it was impossible to justify the cost. By getting the tin-ware close rather than perfect, RTV was then used to seal any gaps.

-Bob Hoover

Reply to
Bob Hoover

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The ones I linked to are not RTV but Anaerobic, used by OEM companies like Piaggio, Mercedes etc.(Even Raby uses the stuff, and he can be a tad picky).

J.

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Reply to
P.J.Berg

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Yes, I did hesitate to suggest RTV as I see it used on so many hack jobs. Of course, the Henkel products you suggest are excellent sealants. Thanks for the tip.

Oh, the RTV you mention that cures without the classic "vinegar smell" is GE Silicone II (sold I'm sure under several trade names). Unlike tradition RTV Silicones (which evolve acetic acid as they cure - i.e. vinegar) GE Silicone II evolves Methanol during it's curing process. This is generally more favorable since methanol has a neutral PH factor (less concern about invoking corrosion on metal substrates). I suppose there might be some plastics that might have some problems with the methanol, but generally all but the cheapest plastics are fairly alcohol resistant.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Reply to
Leopold Stotch

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Bob,

Thanks for the information. I particularly appreciate your clarifying the difference between sealants and form in place gasket compounds.

Another question for you. I've used HondaBond II in place of Permatex

3H for case sealing with good results. Haven't done enough engines to say that is it better, though others who have claim some improvement. Have you any experience with Hondabond II and if so do you think it would be appropriate for sealing pushrod tubes? It is my understanding that Hondabond II was developed to seal aircooled engines (Honda Motorcycle and ATV engines specifically) case halves. Certainly would seem appropriate for ACVW engine applications (at least sealing case halves).

Thanks,

Reply to
Leopold Stotch

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RTV has very little use in a VW engine. MAYBE between the cylinder and the case. I don't use it anywhere.

I have had pretty good results with Mahle cylinder sealant. White "toothpaste" tube, red print.

They make RTV type stuff without that vinegar smell that doesn't eat metal. Lots of brands, most call themselves "gasket maker" or something similar. I sometimes use that to seal engine tin to the case to eliminate all air gaps. (You know how poorly the aftermarket tin fits, and it gets worse when the engine dimensions change in a high performance build)

Jan

Reply to
Jan

Dear Leopold,

I have never used "Hondabond II" so I can't offer an opinion. But as a point of interest, that applies to an untold number of other sealants in that, never having used them, I know nothing about them. Yet at the same time it raises an interesting point: The reason I've not tried any of the many other sealants is because Permatex works well enough that I've never felt the need to try other sealants. By the same token, if I HAD to find another sealant, I would first use it on a Test Engine, probably something that never left the test-stand -- possibly a 2-stroker, hoping to accumulate more data in less time than with a 4-stroke.

A second point with regard to "Hondabond II" is that most of Honda's efforts now involve WATER-COOLED engines. If I had to find a new sealant I would look for something that was SPECIFIC for air-cooled engines.

Please understand my position here is not meant to be contentious. I was shown how to assemble Volkswagen engines in a certain way. Oil leaks were never a problem and never a point of discussion. There are a number of difference between what I was taught and the methods & procedures shown in various popular manuals. People who use those 'popular' methods often complain of oil leaks, causing oil leaks to become a frequent topic on Groups such as this, where people advocate different sealants, torque values and so on. I've mentioned the methods I use but only in the sense of saying: "I do it like this." There is no need for argument since the engine(s) speak well enough for themselves. Nor is there any reason for me to experiment with other sealants since the ones I use don't leak.

In the past I HAVE pointed out that other sealants are available but that was mostly for non-stock applications, or applications for which the Factory Service Manuals offered no information. Or for the notorious 'cardboard' sump-plate gaskets.

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Some years ago I was invited to attend the assembly of an engine, partly because the fellow needed help installing the cam gear on the crankshaft but also for the purpose of my catching any errors the assembler might make. This was not a comfortable occasion for me but one I could not gracefully get out of. In fact, I didn't see any glaring errors but neither did I see anything worth copying. What I DID see was -- over a period of about four hours -- the assembler talking on the telephone, talking to friends who dropped by (some of whom stayed), drinking a couple of beers, searching for tools and so on.

I came away with the impression that assembling the engine was something SECONDARY, a matter of less importance than talking on the phone, chatting with friends, drinking beer and so forth.

I think the point here is that the fellow doing the assembly created a number of opportunities where errors COULD occur. I can't say if they did or not, although once assembled he seemed to always be pulling the engine for one reason or another.

I don't assemble engines in that manner but I don't see any benefit in advocating my method over his. Clearly, the assembly of the engine was a matter of lesser importance than other factors to which he devoted considerable time. I don't know if he had any sealing problems but I saw several opportunities for such problems to occur.

I've a hunch that people who experience oil leaks or sealing problems are liable to blame the sealant rather than their assembly methods, leading to a never-ending search for a 'better' sealant when in fact a low-cost, commonly available sealant such as Permatex seems to be more than adequate... so long as it properly applied and the engine is properly assembled.

-Bob Hoover

Reply to
Bob Hoover

Have you written something on the topic of proper assembly ? I have the Sermons, but must admit it is quite some time since I read all of it. How is the Blue Bentley manual on this topic ?

J.

Reply to
P.J.Berg

Thanks for the answer Bob.

Just to clarify an issue you brought up in your response. Hondabond II is what Honda recommends for sealing cases of their *aircooled* engines. I for one also tend to think of Honda as a maker of watercooled auto engines, but in fact they have a good reputation and do a good business in making well regarded aircooled engines for motorcycles and ATVs (and perhaps even snowmobiles if memory serves). Hondabond II is what Honda recommends for sealing cases on their motorcycle and ATV engines. It is supposed to seal a little better than Permatex (but as you point out, once you reach the point of "good enough" (i.e. performs the task at hand) there is little incentive for improvement). I have heard of guys that could not get a good seal with Permatex that subsequently got their case halves to seal up with Hondabond II. Most likely, they were dealing with mating services that were no longer true and flat or had been abused by attempting to break them apart with a screwdriver or other prying tool. The other thing the Hondabond II advocates claim is that if you ever have to split the case halves apart in the future this material is easier to remove and clean up as compared to Permatex.

As always, I value your clear thinking and years of experience. Thanks,

Reply to
Leopold Stotch

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