2000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems

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I noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive ( about 50 mph) the rpm's jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. Is it time for a rebuild ? I have been
reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. How can you tell if it the TC or the transmission ?
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First, tell us what engine you have, so we'll know which trans you have. Second, let us in on you mileage and maintenance, as well as fluid level, color, and smell.
Next, the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly, so the problem might be electronic, and its worth looking for codes.
Last, the clutches involved are the OD in the OD section, and the front and rear in the main section. Have you noticed slipping in any other shift?
--
Max

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It has the CTD. 2500 with 4x4. It has 72000 miles and I don't know about trans. service. I've only had it a year. I had the fluid and filter changed. Filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. This didn't help the problem. THe fluid didn't smell burnt. Thanks.
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==========dirtclod wrote:

============ Diagnose the symptom through the PCM first, checking the data parameters and for codes.
or.......
guess........
A simple GOOGLE will help you with the guessing.
~:~ Marsh Monster ~tranny tech~ ~~doesn't guess~~ ~:~
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It won't help the problem to change fluid, since the detergents in the new ATF would effectively clean out any dirt that had helped seals work.
If the fluid was dirty, its not likely good news. Any debris in the pan?
--
Max

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Not likely, if the OD switch is in the ON position the converter won't lock until after the 3-4 upshift.
The converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the OD control switch in the OFF position, the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift.
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==========John Kunkel wrote:

========== true
Fact, not Fiction
~:~ MarshMonster ~:~
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False. The FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle and the Marsh Mellow.
TC lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears.
--
Max

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Not according to the FSM text that I provided a link to below. You love to claim that the FSM backs up your bogus arguements but when the FSM actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode.

You're pathetic, read back in the thread, I never argued the engagement parameters, only the function of the control switch which you keep dancing around with your typical diversionary tactics. If you had a valid argument you wouldn't need to resort to your pathetic tactics.

The UNHIGHLIGHTED text in the pic is what you quoted above, it is meaningless without the info on the control switch which I did highlight.

You're the liar. Refer to the line in this thread with date and time stamp where you said anything like that.

See the reference to "hollow gesture". I'm really not surprised that you "feel" the imagined shift sequence, after all you're the same one who claims to "feel" the improved shift after accumulator spring removal; another impossible fantasy.

Your reading skills are as lacking as your knowledge, the underlined portion of the pic I posted clearly states "The clutch can be engaged in third or fourth gear depending on overdrive control switch position". That, combined with the highlighted portion clearly contradicts your claims.

Atta boy Scotty, refer to a TSB that describes an ABNORMAL condition. Your original claim was that converter disengagenent at the upshift is a NORMAL condition.

Ah, the old Budd Cochrane rule, huh? Disregard logic and proven data and believe your claims? Birds of a feather.
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Actually, as I stated, it does back up my argument, no double talk about it. Next, my truck backs up my argument. I achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. I've checked the numbers, and there is no way its in 4th gear. I'll say it again, I've seen it happen, I don't give a damn what you have to say, or the rhetoric you spew. Anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it, or come see for themselves.

My "pathetic tactics" are nothing when compared to your bluster when you are proven wrong.

Um, WRONG, I specifically directed your attention to the line which you highlighted. See, thats just more of your bluster.

No problem John, right here:
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Subject: Re: 2000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems Lines: 124 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response
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Sec 21, pg. 319, First paragraph, fifth sentence, "The converter clutch engages in third gear."
Pretty clear, and is exactly what my truck does, regardless of the position of the OD on/off switch. I have CC LU at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear, depending on throttle position. CC LU is an electronic function, and is thus controlled by the ECM, not hydraulics. As such, the CC locks up when the ECM dictates. (21-323, 3rd paragraph, continued on 21-324) Converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the PCM, coolant temp, engine RPM, MPH, throttle position, and MAP, none of which are the OD on/off switch. This is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event.
--------
See that last sentence John? Here, I'll paste it right here:
"This is in direct contradiction to ****the next line which states what you have stated, that the OD on/off is what dictates the CC LU event."*****
Yup, thats right John, in plain text, right before your very eyes, I made SURE that you knew that I had seen your reference and the exact sentence in the FSM. Sadly, you'll have to take htis up with the engineers, as all I know of the design is that it supposedly works BOTH ways, and my truck works as I have described.

Well John, I figured you might be lame and try to bluster your way out of this, but the math confirms what I saw on the dash. 32MPH at about 1500RPM suddenly becomes 32MPH at about 1375RPM after a slight jolt..... do the math for yourself, its NOT in OD at that point. If you read the FSM, its not supposed to be in OD at that point. (For your math excursions, I have factory size tires on the truck)

Thats correct, and it contradicts the line immediately before it, where the FSM claims the CC is contolled by input from everything but the OD switch. It also contradicts what my truck does. Sorry it doesn't conform to your limited view of the world. I don't know why my truck does the LU at 32-35MPH, but its clear that it does. I'd even say its a bit odd the way it does it but then, as I've stated before, the electronics weren't always doing things logically in the 47RE transmissions.

It certainly is normal given that its a hydraulic function meant to safeguard the transmission. It is clearly shown how it works in both text and schematics in the very FSM you claim says it can't happen. What ISN'T normal is the LACK of either happening, as is indicated by the title of the TSB: 47RE Transmission - Delayed Upshift Or No TCC Engagement Between 30 and 50 MPH Thats right Johnny, if the title says its referring to an event that is delayed or not occurring, NORMAL means it SHOULD happen. Again, try reading the TSB.

No Johnny, its called proof, I have it, you don't, and all you have left is bluster, innuendo, personal attack and bullshit.
--
Max

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Max Dodge wrote in meesage:

Kunkles right......
yer wrong.
Fact, not Fiction.
Max, The proof IS NOT in the link you 2 are referring to. Maybe you should take the time diagnose the wording of the link with a non-biased approach. Take it for what it's stating and not what you want it to state. No where in the wording does it state that TCC applies in 3rd gear when the OD function is enabled. No where! And...that's the claim your making. That the link IS somehow supporting your statement that TCC applies in 3rd gear no matter what mode the buttton is commanding. Read the link with an open mind Max, because the wording is not there to support your claim.
Now....... as to your gracious offer for a test ride to prove that your truck does apply th TCC no matter what mode the button is commanding......I'd love to take you up on it but it's a monetary thing you know. Me being in Florida and all...having bills to pay..limited income...kids...$950 a month house nut........well you get the picture. If your truck IS locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..I'd suggest you concern yourself with the fact that it's highly possible something is amiss. You can perform googles till yer eyeballs glaze over and your NEVER going to find ANYTHING to support your claim that the workings of how you state your truck applies the TCC is factory programmed shift strategy from Dodge. Nothing!!
However, If you subscribe to ATRA, TrNI, AllData, or MOD, you WILL find documented factual evidence to support Kunkles statements that TCC will not apply on a properly functioning tranny system in 3rd gear when the mode button is set to allow OD. Fact~not Fiction!!
Refer back to the above reference of Goolgling............ if you'll spend some time trying to reinforce your statements by searching the tranny type by nomenclature and symptom, you're going to run across sites that will explain why the heat generation during TCC apply is a major problem with this "family" of trannies. Dodge did not program TCC apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for OD, for a specific reason. The more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. This tranny was NOT designed to last, was NOT designed to perform in the applications we're discussing, but was designed to meet Federal guidelines for fuel efficiency. Which it does. But, it's also the weakest linkk in Dodge's CD applications. That's Fact~not Fiction. TCC apply in 3rd gear with an anticipated next shift into OD on CD that's going to basically "stack shift" from the factory on light to medium throttle accelleration is NOT going to happen because of factory programming, because DODGE....didn't want the extra heat being generated, didn't want the engine to lug, and NEVER programmed it in. You can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. But the fact of the matter is you've already stated in open forum that YOU are going by what YOU are feeling. I suggest you go to a tranny shop, get a FREE scan job on the system, and ride with the Tech. You WILL then see that your claims are disproven. FACT...not FICTION.!
Now...... as a final plea to get you to do your homework (google)................ I refer you to the glutunous availability of after market add-ons that are designed to apply TCC, when you want it.
again, go for that free scan job and ride with the tranny tech. My Modis, my Solus, My Mt2500......will all hook to a printer and spit out freeze frame data and "event logs". So will theirs. I let folks ride with me and look at data all the time. No prob. Worst case scenario...??... you'll then be able to post factuall evidence to support your claim and show me and Kunkle to be stupid. Wouldn't that be fun.?!!
lastly.............. and a bit off topic..........
I'd bet my job on me being right. Fact, not Fiction!! (you hear that FM..?!!!!!!!!)
^ ^ o o L O
~:~ Marsh ~sips his crownroyal~ ~:~
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I suggested that years ago, and found no proof of a problem, and in fact, found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. In fact, one of the specific instances I can get LU in 3rd (OD on) is when I accelerate slightly going up a slight grade, instead of kick down, I get LU. Which would suggest that......

... your preceding statement is false. If Dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps, and figured less TC slip time would be an asset, then CC LU in 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that: cut slip time, and lower temps. As such, your previous statement contradicts itself, and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a CC LU would in fact do EXACTLY what you claim the designers wanted it to do: create less heat.

No, I'm going by what I'm seeing on the tach and speedometer. I get a drop of approx 100RPM, after the 2-3 shift, and before the 3-4 shift. Its there, and I've seen it for 7 years now. The trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. Small wonder, since LU will create less heat than unlocked.

Does it state that what I have happening is impossible and/or abnormal? No, in fact it suggests just the opposite. Further, it suggests that OD would occur lower than 40-50MPH, and we know thats not possible either, right?
--
Max

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Max Dodge wrote:
MarshMonster wrote:

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

Marsh wrote:

Max wrote:

Max, in response to your last paragraph...............
No!
If doesn't make a clarified statement to that effect, true.
however, concerning the way you say you can get lockup to "kick in" instead of the unit downshifting, sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer that's programed to do exactly that. Now, no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. It's your truck, you drive it, you seem to know, by however you do, that lockup IS kicking in on 3rd gear. So....I'm not going to try to convince you it isn't. I don't know. I do know that it's not supposed to by all the tech info I've come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives I've done on the system.
With that said..........
check yer mail, if the addy is good.
~:~ mm ~sips his crownroyal~
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Addendum,
Max, With the above said, I'm posting on my experience with scanning these vehicals and the ATRA, MOD, and AllDatat literature that's available to me.
but...... you say your truck has been checked over the years for several drivability issues and the lockup concern was discussed with techs at those times, who told you that the vehical was behaving normally.
I'll take your word for it.
you say you know others with the same vehical and theirs are behaving the same way with no problems over the years.
I'll take your word for it.
But........ I will be paying a little closer attention to the data pids on the ole Modis to see if maybe what I've been wanting to see............... isn't what is actually happening, and I'm going to go check in with the ATRA site and get some input from "all knowing" minds.
any whooooooo.......
It's curious that someone else with the same set up hasn't posted a pro or con on this subject. Regardless of what the AllData lit that I sent you stated, it seems your vehical does what you say it does with no adverse affects, and seemingly because of normal operation.
a good topic......... one of interest to me because I like to think I'm on top of my game in this field, and may be wrong.......
but..... not willing to admit it......yet..............
^ ^ * 0 L O
~:~ mm ~pours kunkle a crown-n-coke......and passes max the mushroom tea~ ~:~
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This truck is, sadly, bone stock. No computers to enhance performance at all for either the diesel or the trans.

I know because I can read a tach, a speedometer and I can count. Moderately heavy acceleration gets me TCC LU at about 45-50MPH, and OD at 60MPH, with TCC LU again at 61-62MPH.

Everything I've read lacks any specific claim that TCC LU in 3rd with OD on should not occur. Since TCC LU is fed by second gear hydraulics, if this were truly a failure, the TCC would be able to LU in 2nd. It does not. It also unlocks for the 3-4 shift. The truck does this fairly smoothly (obviously its not like a Chrysler car) and its not any more abrupt than normal, and it is not bone jarring nor does the truck hesitate or balk. Given that it occurs in a variation of speeds and RPMs that are not only predictable (they occur at teh same points in travel and throttle), but coincide with the shift events that are claimed to be "normal", and all of the shifts and TCC LU events occur in accordance to TV pressure, it would be hard to explain it as "abnormal."
--
Max

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Well you better bone up on your reading skills, the enclosed section of the FSM clearly states the normal modes of operation and it is unambiguous.
http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg
If engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position.
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If engagement of CC in 3rd were abnormal, I'd have a P code. I don't.
I'd have 0720 indicating a low spd sensor RPM, since TC slip would be nil. I'd have 0743 indicating TCC solenoid/trans relay circuits either open or shorted. I'd have 0783 (possibly) indicating an inability to complete 3-4 shift.
I have none of these. There is no P code for abnormal lock up, or even 3rd gear lock up.
Do tell, if its such a problem, why do I have no codes?
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Whether or not your particular truck performs as per the FSM is irrelevant, what is relevant is your claim that the operation of your transmission is in accordance with the FSM.
All of the lines of rhetoric boil down to these simple facts:
FACT #1 My original post reads: "if the OD switch is in the ON position the converter won't lockup until after the 3-4 upshift." to which you replied with the following: " FSM and my truck disagree with both Kunkle (sic) and the Marsh Mellow". So, what you're saying there is that the lockup doesn't depend on the switch position and the FSM agrees with you but anybody who can read and comprehend the English language will see by the text in my provided link that (regardless of sensor input) the lockup DOES ultimately depend on the control switch and, therefore, the FSM is totally contradictory to your claim.
By clearly stating that the FSM supports your contention, you got caught again in your own bullshit and then spent a thousand words trying to spin in your favor the fact that you did get caught.
FACT #2 In your original post on this thread you clearly stated: "Next, the shift into OD means the TC unlocks briefly" and when challenged by me for backup you clearly stated: "Try actually reading the technical bulletins and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about."
So, again you claim that the TC unlocks at the shift and that this is normal operation and that "technical bulletins" will back you up but when actually pressed for a reference to back it up you provide a link to a TSB describing a fault which is not normal operation. Again you got caught in your own bullshit and spent more words trying to backspin that.
In the end, bullshit is your stock and trade.
If you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that don't exist or totally refute your claims.
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Sage advice from one who, despite claiming to have proof, has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal.
Try doing as you say.
--
Max

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I'll offer the same proof that I have offered all along, a section from the FSM describing the operation of the converter clutch; the FSM description of normal operation completely refutes your claims that the FSM supports your version of normal operation.
http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg
The underlined sentence clearly states that the clutch operation is governed by the OD control switch position which is in direct contradiction to your claim that switch position doesn't matter. The highlighted section explains the sequence of application depending on switch position, and this completely refutes your claim that the FSM supports your contention that clutch application is ALWAYS after the 2-3 upshift.
Regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics, the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence.
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