$3.00 per gallon gasoline. Why is everyone so panicked?

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"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message wrote:


I disagree. There were two emergencies, one of which led to wide-spread contamination and several deaths. The risks of nuclear power are large. But so are the potential benefits.

I disagree. You have weigh the potential risks and benefits. The benefits of nuclear power are relatively safe and cheap power. The risks and costs of nuclear power include the need to handle the nuclear waste on a permanent basis and the risk of a disaster. In addition, the nuclear waste can fall into the hands of a terrorists, which is not good.
Recognizing the risks and benefits of something doesn't make one a liberal.
Personally, I would like to see more nuclear power plants. Had you read what I said before, you would also realize that I think that by having one standardized design, both the cost and safety of nuclear power would be improved.
Jeff
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Interesting that we can always blame the "tree huggers" for all of our ills....
Yes... gas mileage hasn't improved over the years.... unfortunately, one cost of clean air is to burn more gas to make sure all the gas is burned. It is an idea that most can't grasp but major centers have experienced improvements in air quality as emissions controls advance. All this in spite of the fact that there are even more vehicles on the road now....
What is just as surprising is our readiness to "blame" the people that might be helping us to save us from ourselves.. Sure, some of the tree hugger rhetoric can be a bit tough to swallow, but I'm sure that we can all agree that you can only shit in your own backyard for so long before you can't go out there any more.
We've been over 3 bucks a gallon for a long time... you'll get over it because life has proven that shit happens.... I might add that I live on top of the stuff gas is made of and I'm getting stroked by big oil just as hard as the next guy. Changing big oil is going to take changing government and changing "accepted business practice".... Not a tree hugger to be blamed.
If it weren't for those with an intense interest in ecology, we all could be facing a world that is no where near as good as it is today. Everyone expects clean air to breath and potable water to drink.... just as long as getting it doesn't change their ways...
I'm not a tree hugger nor do I play one on TV..... But, I do think that, as responsible adults, it is important that we all ensure that we minimize the "footprint" we leave behind. Using lots of petroleum products and having clean air can be two very different things.
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On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:46:43 GMT, "Jim Warman"

Can you explain why all plant life didn't die-off in the era before the 1960s? Also can you explain why more children in America have asthma than during the smoke-stack 1950s?
Many horrific environmental things happened thousands of years before any White man stepped foot on North America. That is ignored because it's one of those gotcha things. It can't be explained so we might as well ignore it. Do anything to defend a position, lies are ok too.
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Jim Warman wrote:

I'm reminded of how much progress has been made with car emissions when I attend the local antique muscle car show every year. We sometimes forget or perhaps have never experienced what car exhaust used to smell like in the days before catalytic converters and fuel efficient engines. We owe a lot of that progress to the people who weren't afraid to make their voices heard for cleaner air.
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progress with emissions??? New Jersey is only 1 step behind California in the strictness of their emissions laws. my 65 falcon continually did better on the strict emissions testing here than most other new cars, until they started putting all the crap in the gas to help "lower" emissions. it still burns cleaner than most computer controlled cars, and gets 20 mpg. but it got 25 mpg and burned cleaner without all the additives in the "gas"

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because we all drive SUV's ahhhh!!!!
"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message

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you want gas prices to go down??? there is a very easy and gaurenteed way to do it. if everyone would just grow a set of cookies and say "i will not buy gas on tuesday." then the refineries would have to shut down for a day, cause they would overfill their tanks. then the next week, do it again, but on another day. and keep on doing it. and then target a retailer. monday, no gas from hess. tuesday, no gas from sunoce, wensday, no gas from exxon. when they start loosing money, they will get the message, and lower prices, or have to drink it.
but this will never happen, because no one has the balls to do it.
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The refineries would not shut down for a day. Plus, what about people who drive a hundred miles or more a day? Even if they don't go to the gas station on Tuesday, they will go on Monday and Wednesday.
How much profit should oil companies make? Utilities often have a profit margin of 15-20%. What kind of profit margin should oil companies be making? Remember, like utilities, oil companies are for-profit companies. They invest billions of dollars in equipment like tankers, refineries and gas stations and in drilling wells.
Jeff
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As to why people are panicked, it's because they are stupid. A lot of people bought SUV's and other gas hogging vehicles with the expectation that gasoline woult be cheap and plentiful for the foreseeable future. Politicians are scared because whomever is in power will get the blame.
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wrote:

Wrong. The inventories at the refineries would go up less than 1% - and they fluctuate that much up or down day-to-day normally. Because everyone that drives will either get gas the day before the big "No Gas Day" or the day after.
They will see a small blip at the retail level - a high volume station that normally sells nearly 48,000 gallons a day (I know of one - 5 to 6 tank-truck loads a day, 16 pumps and a line to get to them) might only sell 42,000 gallons that one day, but they'll see a bump the day before and the day after. Enough for the statisticians to see the difference, but nobody else.

Hess or Sunoco or Exxon might see a percent or two sales drop those days - but if the extra 'day before/day after' sales don't make up for it, it's easy for them to sell that gasoline on the 'spot market' to an independent station. They might lose a penny or two per gallon, but they won't lose any sleep over it.
Gasoline is fungible, it's a market traded commodity. Most of it comes from a common transport pipeline and regional tank farm system, and the outputs of all the regional refineries are commingled (essentially blended) in the pipeline and the storage tanks along the way before it gets to your local gas station. There's simply 87 Octane an 91 Octane, period.
The only difference between the brands? When they fill the delivery truck at the tank farm racks, they put in the detergent and additive package that the seller wants at that point - Chevron adds their Techron package, Hess or Exxon might have their own 'premium' package. If it's being sold to a non-branded station they add a generic package that meets the basic Federal, EPA and Automaker requirements.
It costs a lot extra to ship a specific refineries' fuel to several specific regional tank farms, and then they have to pay for a separate set of storage tanks (87 and 91 Octane) at each tank farm along the way. Only a few brands bother, and they charge a lot more.

Go find a local Community College and go get your BBA, then you'll see this can't work. I can see it without one, because it isn't that difficult - 'Supply and Demand' gets skewed in the seller's favor when the Suppliers are in collusion and the 'market constraints' they point to are artificially generated.
And the buyers of the products are mostly individuals and small companies that can't combine to force a change of direction in the marketplace. If we all belonged to Fuel Cooperatives that bought fuel in large quantities on the futures market and 'banked' it for use, that could generate enough clout in the marketplace to force change. But there are only small ones in rural states, and you have to have the money to invest in advance.
If you want to make the current system work, remove the excuses the oil companies use for the higher prices.
"Restricted Oil Supply" - North Slope drilling, place a pipeline through Canada to the Lower 48 to get crude here avoiding the use of tankers, and provide incentives to get more crude out of older oil fields in the USA through water or steam injection.
"Not enough refinery capacity" - well, that's easy enough - build a few new refineries, expand the ones that are operating (provide tax incentives for having excess capacity) and allow some of the shuttered ones to restart. The oil companies deliberately don't have excess capacity, or the prices would drop. They have created an artificially restricted supply.
Point: USA Petroleum (independent service station chain operator) bought a shuttered small refinery in Ojai CA, and they wanted to upgrade it to meet current pollution standards and reopen it to supply their own stations. But the NIMBY's living in the area (who probably work for other oil companies) kept it from reopening citing "safety concerns" and "noxious odors". (Bulls***.)
Point: Shell tried to shut down their Martinez CA refinery that provides 8% of California's Diesel Fuel supply, citing "Low Demand" for Diesel Fuel - More Bulls***. The Feds made them keep it running and sell it to Flying J Truck Stops as a fully operating refinery, and it's running just fine for Flying J. They have no problem selling all the fuel they can make, thank you very much.
"Can't afford to keep any added reserve inventory on hand" - so the Feds need to build up a large Strategic Reserve of refined products, so when there are temporary "problems" at the refineries (that were "unforeseen and totally unavoidable" - Yeah, Right, Suuuuure...) the Feds have several months worth of refined product on hand they can easily release for use.
That 'Strategic Reserve" would eliminate the excuses for the biennial market spikes as the refineries all "Change over to Summer or Winter fuel blends" and during their "annual maintenance" and the periodic "Fire/Explosion Emergency Shutdown" ersatz crises.
If the Feds place orders for Summer blend a month early in the Spring and sell off the Winter blend in the reserve (and vice versa in the Fall) they can buffer those annual periods.
And if they Feds can make a bit of a profit buying and selling the reserves, anything over the actual costs can go toward paying down the National Debt.
Having the Feds involved isn't my first choice - but the refined fuels market has entrenched massive collusion between the major players that is just this><much shy of outright corruption
As I see it, the solution calls for either Massive Market Regulation (not business friendly or easy to do) or making law that short-circuits the market collusions in place and keeps them from developing new ones.
Make the Oil Companies play fair with us and each other, they'll still turn a profit. They have an effective monopoly over a commodity product that we have to buy, but aren't treated like it.
--<< Bruce >>--
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I think if the traffic lights here where in sequence at all it would lower the price. When the oil industry makes a statement they always say its supply vs. demand, well if I didnt catch every red light then my demand wouldnt be as high.
"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message

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"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message

Here is an idea folks. While this started out as a novel debate on the cost of gasoline, it has gotten WAY off track. If you want to talk cars, GREAT, lets do it. If you want to debate politics, take it SOMEWHERE ELSE... I come in here to read up on peoples car problems, and NOT see "60" posts to a political debate. If you want to debate something, take it to that forum, NOT here..
I would appreciate it if you could take this debate elsewhere..
Thanks, Ford Tech
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Gasoline taxes are also much higher than they were in the 70's, which is a sizeable portion of the money paid per gallon.
Environmental laws are also now more demanding, requiring new additives, new formulations, and seasonal reformulations. This also drives up the cost.
The price of the gasoline itself, adjusted for inflation, isn't actually that high.
It's easier to blame the "evil oil companies" though than our all wise, compassionate government.
"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message

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