Can Anything Stop Toyota?

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The Maxima fits into the "sport sedan" category, along with the BMW 5 series, the Saab 9-5, and some of the Audis, more than the family sedan category. Nissan's mid-size family sedan is the Altima. Adding a V6 to a Camry or Accord doesn't turn it into a sport sedan.
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On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 06:11:17 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"

between the Accord V6 and 04 Grand Prix. I want something that is safe for my son *and* moves like a greased arrow.
I found that adding a 6 to an Accord just makes it silkier in the twisties. It is already a sport sedan. However, I'll agree with you an the Camry. Vuarra
Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur. (That which is said in Latin sounds profound.)
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Or is it? Parts do wear out and they are costly on Toyotas.

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I am not so sure the 'Toyota Premium' actually works out in the end. I think it depends on your area, dealer mark ups, and how long you will keep the vehicle. For example, in Northern Calif, dealer mark up appears on most Accords and Camrys. When my neighbor bought his Camry, he bragged that the dealer mark up was "only $2000". This sets the price differential of about $4,000, or $5,000 OVER a comparable Taurus (actual sales price, not MSRP). Now, over the 'ownership period', I do not think the Taurus will have $4,000 worth of maintenance, or repairs vs the Camry never needing anything. So, that leaves re-sale value as the comparable 'gap'. I think the Toyota will bottom out at probably $3,000, and the Taurus at maybe half that, so I am still not totally convinced it is worth the premium for Toyota quality.
Having said all this; I have read the the LOWEST cost of ownership per mile is to buy a plain, 1 year old Detroit 4 door car, keep it three years, and trade for another 1 year old Detroit car. The theroy here is that you have 2 years remaining if the 3/36 warranty to protect you, so no repair costs impacted there, the 1 year old Detroit car is a bargain, selling at 30% off MSRP, and you have peice of mind of newer car ownership. I'll let you know how I make out doing this with my Impala. Bill 88 Lancer Shelby 91 LeBaron Convertible 01 Chevy Impala LS
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Check Consumer Reports. New Camry repair record just average. Depreciation rates on many Toyotas is just average. The days of high Toyota quality and high re-sale may be ending.

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Find a replacement for Consumer Reports.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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"Philip" wrote:

LOL - you have to be kidding. For years I thought Consumer Reports was owned by Toyota. Now they start telling the truth about Toyotas and you want to dump them?
Ed
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

In Ed's mind:
A negative review = telling the truth. A positive reviiew = propaganda.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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"Philip" wrote:

You must be reading someone else's mind.
What I really think -
Most US car magazines never print truly negative reviews. Advertising revenue is all important and if you trash cars that need to be trashed you'll lose revenue, plus you won't get all expenses paid invitations to the various manufacturer's cool events. Even when cars are truly rotten, they always find a few good things to say. In comparison tests where they have to have a winner, the company that buys the most ads is more likely to win. The only exception is that German cars usually win because that is what the readers expect.
Consumers Report is the one US exception to this behavior. I rarely agree with their opinions. And in the end, despite all their claims to unbiased evaluations, that is all that their ratings reflect. For at least the last 20 years they have largely favored Japanese cars. I am sure they have their reasons. However, my own personal experiences with numerous Japanese cars is so far off of theirs that I don't pay much attention to their opinions any more. They have shown such favoritism to Toyotas (for whatever reason) that I think it is ironic that, because of a few less than glowing reviews, you said to dump the magazine.
Back when I was younger I used to subscribe to a couple of British car magazines. They were very much different that US magazines. Instead of always saying nice thing about everybody's cars, they had no problem at all in trashing certain cars. In general, the further the manufacturer's headquarters was from London, the worse they rated the car. Even while British Leyland was sinking under the waves, they tended to praise the BL products. To them the Rover 3500 was a winner. I still enjoyed the reviews because I am a natural cynic and appreciate criticism instead of faint praise. I had no trouble separating out chauvinism from facts.
Ed
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

I said "dump the magazine" back in the early '70's after the purchase of a 1972 Chrysler. CR has the freedom to apply their editoral prejudice to all their product evaluations. I recognize that fact too. To claim they are objective and / or have similar evaluation priorities as I do has not been evident to me. Evaluations by definition are subjective.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Philip wrote:

I believe that I have had better than average service from product purchases because I have been a rather faithful subscriber to Consumer's Union. About the only product that has not done well is my '94 T-Bird. But, not being clairevoyant, CU could not report that the tranny and disc brakes were deficient until after those problems showed up a few thousand miles after production.
I disagree with your "evaluations" statement. If I were to evaluate two brands of vaccuum bottles, I could certainly objectively evaluate: that one holds four onces more than the other; one loses heat at a rate two degrees per hour faster than the other; one comes with a carrying handle while one does not; etc. To say that one has a prettier color would be, of course, subjective. I have never known CU to rate anything subjectively.
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Then by the definition of the word "subjective", CU must never have made a judgment about a test subject. In fact, CU does make judgments about everything they test.
Objective: Expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived WITHOUT distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Philip wrote:

I am unable to distinguish whether it is your logic, your semantics or both, but your message is somewhat obscure to me.
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

If you cannot distinguish subjective from objective.... especially after you were given the definitions of both words, then everything you see in print probably seems "true." Can't help you further.
--
~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"
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Philip wrote:

My failure to grasp your message was from YOUR logic and YOUR semantics, such as they are. And you're probably correct. You probably are unable to clarify it for me.
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"Farley @nonymous" wrote:

They recently rated wines. How can that be anything but subjective?
Ed
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C. E. White wrote:

I vaguely remember that article now that you mention it. I would have to agree that unless they investigated solely at the molecular level, which they did not, the results would be highly subjective. I am sure there must be other examples on which I would concede. I yield the point.
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Yes. Exactly.
I think Chrysler puts out some sharp looking vehicles. However, as I have learned over time, pretty means nothing when it is sitting on top of a rack being repaired constantly. I've driven the attractive GMs and Chrylsers and Fords. They may look better (debatable) and may be better equipped, but now that I have a wife and two kids I had to soul search and say, "What do I want my family to be out on the road in, A Ford or a Toyota?" As for me, I chose the one that I feel will be safest and most dependable for my family, Toyota.

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A matter of personal priorities...
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That may or may not be true but a Toyota will not be worth anywhere near the difference it the price of driving it home when new. A V6 Toyota costs at least seven to nine thousand more to drive home new than a Taurus, and it it only worth three to five thousand more in two years. CR latest report rates the Buick Regal above the Camry anyway and it too costs less to drive home when new. IMO Toyota has simply priced its stuff out of the market compared to its competitors over the past five years or so. After three Lexus V8's I switched to the Lincoln LS V8 for 25K less. I have found the Lincoln LS to be just as dependable as were any of my Lexus' for a lot less money. To the average buyer the most important question they ask is how much is my monthly payment? Eight thousand dollar adds over $230 to the monthly payment on a three year loan. Buyers that think they will come out ahead on repairs are just kidding themselves. They are learning that Toyotas break down as well and cost a lot more to fix when they do. Go into the Toyota NG and read all the engine, tranny and brake problems and all the grips about rattles and miss fitting dashboards, bad paint etc.. The all build some that are not up to the manufactures standards, that is why they all have a warranty, even Rolls Royce. Have you notice the number of Toyotas on the used car lots of GM and Ford dealerships lately? ;)
mike hunt
AV wrote:

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