Why does everyone think 'rental cars' when the discussion turns to fleets? Rental company take only a relative small percentage of the vehicle sold or leased to fleets. The biggest majority of fleet vehicle in the US are cooperate fleets that use truck, light trucks and SUVS Cars account for only about 1/3 of the fleet vehicles sold annually in the US.
Actually nobody should judge ANY vehicle, good or bad, by the ONE they may have owned. Particularly if you are a used car buyer. ;)
mike hunt
You say but the majority of Toyotas assemble in the US have a first VIN digit of '4' or '5' not a '1.' Toyota is even advertising assembled in the US 'of world sourced parts,' since Honda complained tot the FCC about Toyotas made in America claims . Honda, on the other hand, actually make car if the US of American parts and have a '1' as the fist number of the VIN
Shooting the messenger won't make Ford's any better.
Apparently more buyers already think Fords are better. Better than any others, except GM. LOL
mike hunt
True. My folks ended up renting Chrysler 5th Avenue on vacation in Canada many years ago. When it was time to buy a new car that is what they bought. But it only works if the car is good the the rental company maintained the car well. I myself have been turned off many cars because of rental car experience. Some was the manufacturers fault (Dodge Lancer-horrible seats) and Chevy Chevette (no explanation required.
That's right. That's why we all troop down to the library and do research, using publications from organizations that survey LOTS of owners, starting with Consumer Reports. Then we get a CarFax on the prospects, then we have our mechanics check the prospects out, then we buy a Honda or a Toyota.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
And, conversely, if he rents something and discovers it's a POS, he'll know to look elsewhere to replace his current car.
Which is exactly what happened to a buddy of mine recently when he rented an Equinox.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
In the discussion at hand, rental fleets are important because of exposure. MANY people will drive a Grand Am that Hertz or Avis rents out over the course of a year and it will leave MANY impressions along the way. Fleets that hand over the keys to a single individual for a year or two at a time are not the same kind of advertising vehicle.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account fromOf course, they is always a minority that will believe the opinions of the rest of the others in the minority.
mike hunt
This must make the tester's day. Imagine you been driving one econobox after another for months on end and, suddenly, your boss hands you the keys to a Boxster or 'Vette and says, "We need this evaluated..."
Whoa, baby!
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
You can evaluate control layout, sightlines, performance, many other characteristics from ONE vehicle (unless it's broken).
You can not evaluate quality control issues from one vehicle (but if I bought one to test and it arrived broken, I'd sure be suspicious). CR understands that and quality control and reliablity are not measure via one-vehicle testing. Although they will mention if something was broken on the test vehicle.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
So, according to you, we should not form our opinion based on ONE experience with a vehicle (March 12, 4:27pm) but neither should we do some research using the broadest end-user surveys commonly available (March 13, 1:57pm).
What's left? Ouija boards and Tarot cards? Is that your recommendation?
Look, if it's any consolation to you, I not only look at personal experience (Fords and VWs suck, GMs are so-so, Toyotas rock) and CR (Fords and GMs often suck, VWs usually suck, Toyotas and Hondas usually rock) but I also solicit the opinions and experiences of my friends (domestics suck, Toyotas and Hondas rock) and my mechanic ("domestics are my cash cows but I really appreciate people who buy VWs and please don't buy that Toyota because I'm trying to send kids to college").
See any themes there? I sure do.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account fromYou certainly are entitled to your own opinion and can spend your money wherever you wish. If you want to rely on the opinions of others, look at the sales figures. Most buyers do not agree with your opinion or spend their money were you do, or as CR suggests. When it comes time to spend their hard earned money US buyers buy a lot more products for GM, Ford and Chrysler than they do from Toyota, Honda or any other import brand, period. The true test of what is 'best' is in the total annual sales figures. Obviously more buyer believe domestics make the better vehicles
mike hunt
Oh, I see, buy GM because they're #1. So, even if we ALL agreed that not only is their overal quality, reliability and longevity lower, that their products were more expensive, less fuel-efficient, less fun to drive, less stylish, less powerful, less useful, that the sheer weight of their previous years' sales numbers would be the reason for buying their products.
That's a very intriguing notion. And, actually, that seems to be pretty much the GM executive leaderhip's plan; screw the UAW and lower-level white collar workers (google GM and pension), shovel as much cash into their own pockets as possible and take rapacious advantage of customer loyalty until the wheels fall off the corporation.
Bzzt. Wrong. That's the true test of what is "popular," not what is "best."
Which, by the way, would be better? Being #1 in auto sales (worldwide) and losing money? Being #2 in auto sales (worldwide) and making money?
Another poster sure nailed it when he observed that GM's unit volume hasn't increased at all in the last 20 years or so of this "ever-expanding US market" (your description and he was using your own figures).
It's pretty sad for GM that ALL the expansion in the US market in the last
20 years has been sucked up by other car companies..Now, why would that be?
I have to wonder where GM is going this year. Along my routine walk, to and from work, there's a used-car dealer and a Chevy dealer. Both their inventories are, quite obviously, heavily loaded with trucks and SUVs (the lot also has Caddies). No compacts or economy cars. Friday, an auto-carrier pulled in with an SSR, a couple of Equinoxes and some other large things. Nothing small. I've seen an HHR or two on the road (they're easily recognized, they look like they've taken a long, hot soaking bath in Ugly) but I've never seen an SSR on the road. Is it a big seller? What does it cost to park a $25K truck on a Chevy dealer lot for 6 months?
By the by, the new trucks at the Chevy dealer display promotional signs in the high $20Ks and up. Just 50 yards down the road are earlier copies of these trucks ('99's to '01's) with $4K to $9K stuck to their windshields. And the used-car lot didn't pay that for them.
You know what actually moves off the used lot? They never keep a 5 to 6 year old pickup truck with a stick, 2WD and a four-banger for more than a few days. If they ever get economy cars, they must move faster, because none have lasted long enough for me to see one.
recommendation?
And you clipped the fun part of my previous post...
Look, if it's any consolation to you, I not only look at personal experience
(Fords and VWs suck, GMs are so-so, Toyotas rock) and CR (Fords and GMs often suck, VWs usually suck, Toyotas and Hondas usually rock) but I also solicit the opinions and experiences of my friends (domestics suck, Toyotas and Hondas rock) and my mechanic ("domestics are my cash cows but I really appreciate people who buy VWs and please don't buy that Toyota because I'm trying to send kids to college").
See any themes there? I sure do.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
Sure you 're entitled to your opinion, and I know as fact Toy's are not the most reliable as people make them out to be. I've been a toy mechanic for a few years and they have just as many problems as domestics, granted you don't see as many of them in great droves at the shop, BECAUSE there are fewer of them compared to domestics. Over the years, when you balance the numbers out over domestics, it works out to be pretty much the same ratio. Oh, and toyo's had the head gasket problem, like ford did, pretty much at the same time. That was due to supplier of the gaskets, they both used the same manufacter. I can go on with repeat problems on toyo's, but why bother. Idiots like you, who own them refuse to beleive that they are no better than a domestic.
Okay Mike. Anecdotal should be shoved aside. Hmm, also don't pay attention to wide reaching surveys. Instead, judge quality and value based on what is the most popular seller. That is what you are saying.
Just curious Mike, do you like AOL as an ISP? Boy, they sure are popular. Must be the best, at least by your logic.
The SSR is more like a $40,000 truckett. It is no truck. Maybe lard-assed bad-idea, but not a truck.
Don't argue with Mike. Waste of time. Accept his logic. Most unit sales + massive losses + sinking market share = highest quality for GM vs. junky brands liked by the idiots at CR such as Toyota.
GM's future is assured thanks to Mike's proof that GM quality is the best. And those guys at GM who actually admit their quality is inferior to Toyota? Heck they probably just don't want some poor Toyota exec. to feel bad and have to impale himself on a sword or letter opener or something.
On behalf of GM stockholders everywhere, Mike, I thank you for lifting the veil of deceit and despair for us all.
And like GM is rapidly losing market share. But at least AOL sees the handwriting on the wall and is starting to offer broadband.
Marketshare is a fickle thing. Every manufacturer has seen fluctuations in marketshare. That all by itself is pretty meaningless. It only stands to reason that GM would be seeing an impact from all of the recent announcements. I expect they will continue to see some hits for a while. That's the nature of the market. I also expect they'll come out of this in time. I suspect they'll come out with a radically different agreement with the unions, and I equally suspect that's what's behind a great deal of this. Some honest restructuring both within the corporate ranks, the corporate processes, and the union relationships would be good for GM and would position them to be a leader again. Contrary to what the Toyota advocates like to tout, I believe GM has some pretty damned good stuff to be proud of.
MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.