It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.

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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:


sweet! I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT (probably because Prius came out first), and I was saddened that I would have to give up MT if I ever wanted to get a hybrid. But now I can have the best of both worlds.
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No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius: 2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.
The Insight was available with both manual and auto trans, as is the current Civic Hybrid.
The Toyota is a complex system; the Honda is simple and straightforward. Integrated Motor Assist is probably more bang for the buck.
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In the US, you are correct. But the Prius was released in Japan and Europe before the Insight was produced. Honda reportedly rushed out the Insight to beat Toyota to the US market. Succesfully I would say as a lot of people think Honda made the first commercial hybrid!
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

OK fine, is this better? =)
I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT (probably because Prius was the first hybrid to be popularized in the mainstream US media).
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I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to understand, and rather obvious in operation.
I don't understand the Escape very well yet. Definitely a different animal, and a precursor for the heavy hybrid (no pun towards the weight of the SUV). The electric-only mode could be extended with a heavier battery set and different logic so that it could operate completely electric and be charged at night, and yet have the gas engine for long distance usage. I have seen 99mpg on my average mileage display over a 10 mile stretch of commute traffic. Then the engine starts, and the mpg plummets ;-)
I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.
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was introduced in 2001, and Honda engineers reported the electric assist gave it off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp engine. When we realize the technology is in its infancy, the future is amazing indeed.
Mike
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Honda did report on this. I forget the exact numbers, but it is something like 1/3 due to the hybrid itself (regen, more efficient power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology, and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that.

Same as Prius. See other posts.

Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery. The cost of the battery (and mass and volume) are pretty much directly proportional to that energy capacity.
And if you want sustained performance, ex: climbing Baker Grade in california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous capability.
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I would have purchased a pure electric car, except that it didn't have enough range. If the Electric-Gas hybrid had an electric-only range of 30-40 miles, that would suffice for most around town runs, but the gas would always be available for the cross country jaunts.
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Definitely. This will probably be an area where hybridization appears last - towing packages and trucks of all sorts. The IMA approach is still attractive (in a technical sense) in that it can improve passing ability and the ability to gain speed after a stop, but I think it will be a long time before the economics of that make sense. Turbocharging is better for towing and trucks, and even that still isn't universal yet.
And as to the topic, I've driven manual and AT rental trucks up grades and I despise autos for that sort of thing. They also bite the big one off road, especially on slippery snow/mud roads. Throttle/slippage is much easier to control with a manual.
Mike
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wrote:

I doubt that IMA can return over 30% in fuel consumption. I recall, on Edmund's Hybrid Forum, one of the Insight driver was operating without IMA. He was still getting over 50mpg, without any electrical assist. The IMA might return over 30% in optimum condition, but from normal driving, It's probably more like 15%.
I think Honda's Hybrid system could be improved if the battary capacy was improved and the car was allowed to charge-up overnight (or the IMA can be user programmed to expect overnight charging). In this case the 30% improvement could become a norm.
Honda's system does seem more cost effective when compared to more complicated and expenive system. I'm looking forward to seeing the system on more low priced entry level cars.
Hopefully, Honda will bring back the Insight (which is in it's last year of production), but with a go-fast suspension system and a better IMA mated to the 1.3L.
Pars

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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas motor.

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Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts?
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It's probably technically possible but I bet it would eat a lot of power.
How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual.
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I don't think it would affect the balancer at all. On the other hand, there wouldn't be a flywheel, since the IMA is effectively the flywheel. That would help smoothness at idle.
Engine RPM when blipping the throttle could be part "drive by wire". There's a lot of computerized engine control involved. The Civic still has a throttle cable. I don't know about the Accord. The Ford Escape does not. In the Ford, blipping the throttle does absolutley nothing unless you go beyond about 2/3 throttle, at which point the RPM climbs rather slowly, maybe 2 seconds to 3000 RPM.
It could also be the heavy flywheel affect of the IMA.
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True, but note that the vast majority of the time (or at least on the wimpy EPA certification cycles!) very little of that 240 hp is actually used. To be sure, the Accord is a lot heavier and less aerodynamic than the Insight. So it would benefit from a bigger battery. But (as you no doubt know) the proportion of battery to ICE size doesn't need stay the same as ICE power goes ballistic.
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It seems to be exactly the same as the Civic, almost the same as the original Insight, and completely different from the Prius and Escape.
The point about the motor being tiny is true, though. The benefit from idle-stop is still there, as is the cleanliness of the engine at initial takeoff, where the ICE wouldn't normally be very efficient. The Accord IMA produces 12% more hp than the Civic.
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Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

Say again? A quick look at the Yahoo Autos tells me that the 2005 Civic Hydrid is available with a 5-speed manual transmission. The same goes for the Insight.
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Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same car which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic, easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a 1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters / 100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving).
Ahmet
Turkey
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car
of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
ahmet
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Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like every other automatic.
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