Well, for those of you who have kindly responded to my previous questions, this is becoming a bit of a saga. We obtained a new timing tensioner and mounting bolt, and the motor is put back together, so I decided to install the timing belt before doing the valve lash. Got the belt installed correctly and tensioned fine, so I went to tighten the tensioner bolt... whoops! Off comes the piece of the oil pump housing that the tensioner bolt threads into! At this point I'm realizing that the oil pump housing is just aluminum, and kicking myself for torching the tensioner bolt. I have a new oil pump ordered and it should be here Monday. It comes with a new crank seal installed.
So, until Monday, I have the task of removing the crankshaft timing gear. The factory manual calls for a J 28509-A two-jaw puller. The teardown manual calls for two screwdrivers, as if the gear will just slide off.
Here is a picture of the oil pump that the gear is outside of:
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As you can see, the gear is surrounded at least halfway around by a lip that protects it from the road. This lip makes it impossible to get a generic 3-jaw puller around the gear. I have a 2-jaw puller, but the gear is too close to the oil pump cover to get the puller jaws behind the gear's flange.
Not having the appropriate puller, I spent the evening with a screwdriver on either side of the gear, hammering on each alternately from the top. I may have succeeded in moving the gear about an 1/8 of an inch, but further effort seems futile.
I'm worried about damaging the main bearing doing this. Should I keep trying this or not? What about heating the gear, will that hurt anything aside from the crank seal that is to be replaced anyway? Or should I just take tomorrow off and buy the puller from GM on Monday?
Then, neither book gives any details about how to reinstall it once I've replaced the oil pump. Do I just grease it and beat it back on with a mallet?
If you've got some space behind the crankshaft gear, why not try a pry bar now? If you need to get it back on, you need to get successively shorter bolts that will "pull" (or push, however you want to look at it) the gear back on. If two screwdrivers are supposed to do the trick, I'd try soaking it with penetrating oil. Like wws said, I have also used a C-clamp to keep the jaws from separating while pulling gears and pulleys.
I finally got it off by repeating the following: heat with propane torch, spray front and back with pb, tap on face of gear back towards engine, then alternate beating on screwdrivers wedged behind either side of it. Once it had moved about 1/3 inch off its seat, I was able to get a regular 2 jaw puller behind it, and then it just fell off. Unfortunately, the lip of the gear is destroyed from prying and from a failed pull attempt at the beginning. So unless it's safe to file off the gear lip entirely, there goes another 60 bucks. (When installing the new gear, what should I put under it to avoid it seizing to the crankshaft again?)
So now it's time to remove the broken oil pump. It is bolted to the front of the block around the crankshaft and is secured with seven bolts. Then there are two studs on the bottom that go through the lip of the oil pan. I removed all the bolts and the nuts off the stud, and broke the pump's seal to the block. The teardown manual seems to indicate that this should be sufficient to remove the pump housing. (The factory manual does not even mention removing the nuts at the bottom.)
The problem is that the pump needs to come straight off the crankshaft while at the same time the pump studs are lifted up out of the oil pan flange. I am able to get the pump at about a 30 degree angle with the block, but the studs in the pan cause the pump housing to angle downwards, and there isn't enough room to get the pump around the crankshaft because of the downward angle.
So to add insult to injury it appears that the oil pan must be removed, unless anyone has other ideas how to maneuver both the old and new pump in this area. Of course, to remove the oil pan, another motor mount must be removed (I already have the timing mount off), necessitating an engine hoist, in addition to the suspension crossmember and the front exhaust pipe. Then it appears that I will need an assistant to hold the oil pan with fresh RTV to the block while I thread in the bolts. The problem here is that I'm not sure if I will have enough time to get RTV all around the pan and get it held up to the block before the first-applied areas of RTV start to set up. Is the timing here as narrow as it seems? Maybe somebody makes a slow-setup RTV? (I have permatex red)
My car is extremely mechanic friendly from the top for regular maintenance, but this other stuff is becoming quickly painful. Are all FWD cars like this or am I just lucky?
Get the studs out of the pump any way you can. Visegrips maybe. Or break them. Put it back with bolts or screws. Permatex red is specialty high heat, black is the best for block sealing. You need a new pulley, use anti-sieze(Permatex) for reassy.
Man you just can't win on this one. Looking on the bright side at least you have learned a heck of a lot during this experience. Most of the problems you have run in to would have been run in to at a shop as well. They might have been able to deal with them easier but it still would have added to the repair bill.
There is at least a fighting chance that you can just loosen the oil pan bolts and drop the pan down enough to clear the studs. Usually when I replace an oil pan gasket I don't use RTV on it. I just use enough to tack the gasket down in a few spots so it won't get out of place while putting the pan back up. The manufacturer didn't use RTV and it did not leak.
I can't offer any help on your other problem. Sorry
That advice made my day. I got a death grip on the studs with red channel locks (note: blue channel locks insufficient :-) ), cracked em loose (what a great sound), and they turned right out. Where's your tip jar?
You betcha.
For oil sealing or for all sealing? I used permatex red on the thermostat housing on the cylinder head. It appears that whoever did the water pump used something black on it. The oil pan and pump had red sealant of some kind. When I put the pump back on I will use black as you suggest.
I think I bent the flange of the oil pan a little bit - what's the best way to correct that, or will it self-correct when the new pump is installed?
Should I pack the new pump with vaseline as the teardown manual states? Factory manual says nothing but that may be assumed.
Aye aye.
That tensioner through hole on the oil pump looks to be a very bad design to me. On the new one, I'd like to use loctite as was suggested earlier to avoid stressing that point (I found someone else whose broke off in the same way, his broke while driving and made a real mess of things). How can I manage the tensioner installation and adjustment with loctite? Will it give me enough time to make any final belt adjustments before it sets up? And, will RED loctite become 'unlocked' by heating the bolt in the future, or is that only a property of blue loctite?
This group is one of the most excellent resources on the internet and this is at least the third time this week I have been saved with a timely piece of advice. Thanks!
Yeah. If I didn't have the opportunity to do it myself I would have junked the car a while ago. Even doing it myself it's been way more expensive than I predicted. There is the learning aspect of it too obviously, but I'm forced to ask myself: is any of the knowledge I've acquired anything I have a taste for ever using again? ;-)
I mean for real, how many manufacturers both use a weird ass bolt in the timing tensioner AND mount it into an easily broken place? If it wasn't for that rounded bolt I would have been driving last Tuesday. Everything else I've had to buy and do is pursuant to that one damn bolt and the cretin who rounded it off for me: new bolt, new tensioner, new oil pump, new crank timing gear. Around $300 in unforeseen costs - almost enough for a new beater!
Not to mention using a week of vacation to work on a stupid car. Not that turning a wrench isn't relaxing in some ways, but having to continually beg for help on the internet with the latest frustrating problem gets old quick. It's funny how real-life friends with mechanical ability seem to make themselves especially scarce when you've got something you could really use help with.
At least I know I haven't taken any shortcuts or put any questionable/broken crap back in there. That's more than I can say for most people who I've
*paid* to work on my car... for example:
I had an alignment at D***s about a year ago when I put a new steering rack on. They twisted up my steering boots, and then tried to tell me that the boots don't matter when I told them to fix it. I became fed up with arguing with their service manager and straightened the boots out myself.
Then earlier this year before my head gasket leak was identified, I put new struts, ball joints, tie rod ends, and bushings on my front end, then had an alignment done at Pl**a T**e. I specifically instructed them to fix the steering boots once they were done setting the toe and they said they would. Well the alignment fixed things up so nice, I was really enjoying driving, and I didn't even look at the boots until now when I got the car up on jackstands to do the head gasket. They were twisted. I straightened them out again (why is this *my* job?) Lo and behold, one of them has a hole ripped in it from being bound up. So now I get to replace at least one boot (probably will do both) because someone at a national chain didn't do their damn job - *again*. Oh, and one of my camber wedges is missing since the last alignment. Did it fall out on the road, or did they just forget to put it back in as I should expect?
The only shop I've had luck with is a local Autocraft. It is run by an old timer who is sometimes hard to communicate with (too much solvents?) but they have always charged a price that is beyond fair, and I have never had reason to question any of the work they have done. Unfortunately they only do suspension and exhaust work and are sometimes way too busy to get anyone in for several days ahead.
Fortunately that problem's done with. I used channel locks to get the studs out as another poster suggested and the pump is off. (woo.. my main bearing looks neato in there)
I will have the new pump in hand tomorrow, clean off the block and the piece of oil pan it mounts to, install new o-rings to the oil passages (should I spray them out with brake cleaner while I have the opportunity?), and use permatex black to seal the pump as recommended here. (It appears that the new pump will arrive as a sealed unit so hopefully it will be already primed.) Then the timing gear will go on with anti-seize, timing belt put on, valves adjusted on the new head, the oil replaced, and I will wait overnight for the RTV to completely set up before attempting to start the car FINALLY.
That's what's suggested in the manual, but other people with the same car have complained about the cork OEM gaskets leaking if installed according to the instructions.
I'm not sure what the manufacturer used. The current state of the oil pan is that it definitely has some kind of red or orange sealer all around the flange, and fortunately it has never leaked while I've owned the car. Hopefully I'll be able to avoid dropping the oil pan since the pump is off now.
I just use the black for everything. Red maybe for marine watercooled exhaust flanges. :) A LIGHT coat on the gaskets,(it may dry a little but thats ok, it swells when it gets oil on it, and wet dobs in the corners right before you mount it.
Hit it with a hammer. Tighten that one last and it will pull up. Just don't strip it out, Maybe a little extra silicone there.
Pack it Yes.Might melt a little, just do your best.
I use whatever allows hand tool removal. Use A Torque Wrench. With a new bolt and a 6 point socket it will not be a problem. Even if you have to readjust it.
What torque? Wellll, lessee. Thats 10mm? What does the book say?
No gaskets - just block surface and oil pan flange, which will be clean metal once I scrape off the existing RTV.
Sounds good.
Looks like the new one will come sealed so I've got to hope they include instructions on what to do. From reading it appears that motors with crank mounted oil pumps are difficult to prime so hopefully I don't have to do anything... the car has been sitting for 2 weeks however and a month is supposedly the point where the bearings start to dry out.
...
Well, it's a 12 point bolt - one of five on the car (other four are 8mm on the throttle body). I believe that the original problem was a cretin with a
6 point socket and air gun from how the bolt head looked, and how the bolt just fell out of the hole once I ground off teh head.
The book calls for 37 lb/ft of torque, but I was at about 10 lb/ft on my torque wrench when the original oil pump broke to the tune of $160. That's why I'm giving serious consideration to loctiting the bolt into the new pump instead of torquing it. IMHO it is a terrible design to have the tensioner bolt thread into the aluminum pump housing instead of into the block, but now I'm 'all in' on this car unfortunately so I've got to fix it and drive regardless of how I feel about it.
Correct. The specs calls for 37 ft/lbs. But the oil pump tensioner mount broke when I barely had 10 lbs on it with my torque wrench. That's why I'd rather loctite the new one instead of trying to torque it down (and perhaps breaking the NEW pump like the old one).
I got the new Beck Arnley oil pump, but it didn't come with the o-rings. Naturally no o-ring in the whole store fit either groove, and the GM dealer claimed the o-rings were part of their pump assy ($190). Beck-Arnley is supposed to be an *exact* OEM replacement... oh well. BA didn't give me the o-rings, but they did manage to throw an extra crank seal in there for some unknown reason (one preinstalled in the pump, another in separate package inside box). I ended up returning the pump and ordering a Topline pump from importperformanceparts.net ($100). What a pain!
So you know what motor I'm having fun with, it is an Isuzu 4XE1 SOHC motor in a 90 Geo Storm.
Oh, a classic. I used to have the same hobby. Mine was a '73 Mustang 351C, C-6, Detroit, Carter AFB. I wrenched and/or painted every nut, bolt, screw, panel, piece of glass, rubber, and piece of metal. Built the true duals, etc. Bought it used, on time payments. The engine siezed the week before my last payment. Pulled with a come along hooked to a tree. Assembled it in my apartment. Those were the days.
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