Goodbye VW - I'll miss you but I must leave now

If I was considering a new car right now, my first choice would be a hybrid - especially a Toyota Prius.

I know how you feel about your VW. Reliability is not their strong suit.

Uh oh.

Yeah, customer service does stink. For the duration my car was under warranty and VOA would call from time to time after I took my car in for planned or unplanned service, the folks at the dealership would fall all over themselves to make sure I was happy. Once the warranty expired, they were downright hostile.

There is a local place unaffiliated with VW that I plan to take my '04 Jetta once the warranty is over. Yes, it will cost me, but at least I won't be treated shabily.

Saturn is reasonable but very boring. Other than that, I have owned Hondas and VWs. Reliability of Hondas is great but they just don't excite me.

It pays to find a good local mechanic who can service VWs and treat you well. It is bad enough when a four-year-old car breaks down just out of warranty. but when the dealer treats you like you're a pile of steaming filth, that's too much.

Nice troll... Why are you posting this here? What would you like us to do for you? Any particular reason you are in here badmouthing Volkswagens? The A4's had a lot of problems which were resolved by 2003, but they were all fairly minor and VW did the right thing eventually. I've never heard of any serious engine problems with any of the current VW engines.

VW dealers don't have good reputations, but I know of plenty of non-VW dealers which suck the big one too.

"You"? Do you think we are VWoA?! I think VW's sales have been pretty good of late actually.

I've only had one experience with the IRS, when I got auditted, and they were actually quite reasonable.

Oh no! Toyota/Honda fanboys... There are plenty of Honda drivers at my work, they have just any many problems as any other car, their problems however tend to be a little more serious than A/C, wipers, windows, etc.

My Ford Escort has been very reliable. I've owned it for 2-3 years and I don't think I've had any problems with it since I got it.

If you make up your mind to hate a brand you will find tons of evidence (and other people) to support you. Thats true of Honda, Toyota, VW, Ford, Mercedes, everyone... I've had two Fords, a Honda, and 2 VW's. Let me tell you, the Fords have been the most reliable, followed by the VWs, and the Honda faired by far the worst.

good luck!

I am at this point myself. I am looking into the Mazda 3. It is really fun to drive and feels just as punchy as my Beetle 1.8T. "Car" magazine said it is more fun to drive than the new Audi 3 and new GTI.

I have had all the problems and when the warranty ran out I was treated like shit by the dealer. I have owned 3 Honda Civics, 1 honda accord, 2 Subaru Legacy/Outbacks and one Subaru Impreza. I never had one problem with any of those cars and they were all driven to 100.000 miles and over. My dad loves Subaru Legacy GT turbo wagons 90-94 and every used one he picks up runs like a top. I do think Subaru has similar problems with their service dept. They try to push unnessesary service and get bitchy when you don't buy it.

From what I have been reading in the "Automotive News", VW is in a major sales slump which is why they brought out the new Passat sooner than planned. Also, if you check repair statistics, VW has way more problems than Toyota or Honda. (Even so, I don't like Toyotas).

If you check JD Power's automotive surveys, VW comes in much worse than average nearly every category. If I counted correctly they include 37 manufacturers.

4th worst in "long term quality" (3yr dependability). 4th worst in "initial quality". 3rd worst for Customer Satisfaction with Dealer Service.

Customer retention they're 9th worst, but that includes the now discontinued Oldsmobile. I don't think ANYONE is buying new Oldsmobiles.

28th of the 37 in Sales Satisfaction

Apparently they spend lots of attention on getting the customers money. VW Credit was #1 in ?floor planning? I have no idea what that is. Nice offices?

So as much as I like the way my Jetta drives, and as much as I dislike the others, I'm not likely to get another VW anytime soon. Especially not with the premium paid in pricing and dealer attitude. I don't think no_name can provide any data to justify that all the problems were fixed in 2003.

I don't think it's trolling to point out to potential buyers that VW isn't doing so well just now. How else are they going to have incentive to improve? Just look at Audi. They're initial quality is now one of the best, even tho' their 3yr is bad. From what I'm reading, Audi has been sucessful in improving even that. Maybe someone from the other side of the corporate wall needs to take a lesson?

Fanboys...

Mark '95 Jetta GLS

If you think VW products are as reliable as their competitors, you have not been paying attention to the various consumer reports.

This only shows the lack of objectivity of those surveys. Because Audi nowadays is basically the same VW, just in different look. They simply can't be significantly different, they are built by the same company from the same parts.

For example, Audi A3 is built on the Golf4/Jetta4/Bora platform, sharing the most of the parts. Same body platform, same suspension, same engines. Different looks, different set of extras (Audi usually has a wider range to choose from), different price. But basically the same parts underneath.

Audi A4 (and A6 to the some extent) is built on the same platform as VW Passat. Basically the same similarities as with Golf4/Audi A3. Of course there are some "distinct" models, such as Passat W8 or Audi S4, but they are not mainstream anyway.

Audi A8 and VW Phaeton are also very very related.

Ok, one would say, it's the assembly quality that matters. Yes, of course, if you speak about loose interior panels, rattles or similar "cosmetical" problems. But I fail to see how does it affect all the problems VW currently has.

reliable as VW or vice versa. They usually share the same set problems. For example, if you have a problem with unreliable front suspension of VW Passat, you will also have the same problem with Audi A4 and A6 suspension.

Who? :)

'93 Vento GT - cheaply built, but reliable due to the extreme simplicity of design.

"Floor plan" financing is financing the dealers' inventory. Dealers have to borrow money to put cars on their showroom floors and lots, and that's usually done by the manufacturers' own credit companies.

Shooting the messenger is an old technique.

Nope. For instance, from what I've been able to tell (no stats or web surveys to back it up), parts for NA Jetta/Golfs are sourced locally to the plant. So the guys that spec and source the parts in the various assembly locations are at least as important as the design. Poorly executed design = bad product.

As I've stated before, it's been my experience that replacing Mexican sourced parts with German ones is a noticeable improvement. Your experience in Europe is probably different. I suspect most of your Vento/Polo platform come from the European plants (Czech?)

At least we agree there are problems.

The improvement in Audi is reported to be a recent phenomenon. It remains to be seen if the short term improvements translate to the long term.

As a fan of Euro cars, where else to go? Mercedes is earning a bad reputation, seemingly more infected by Chrysler than healing it. BMW is perhaps pulling out of it's own fugue. Saab seems to be going through a period of GMification. Volvo/Mazda/Ford...

No wonder I'm staying pat with what I've got. It may need fixing around the edges constantly, but it's paid for.

Oh, no on in particular ;)

Yep. The simpler models do seem to fair MUCH better than the ones with more complexity.

Wishing I'd gotten a GL, Mark '95 Jetta GLS

I agree. Some pretty poorly executed parts come from Brazil as well. I have seen some very ill-fitting window seals, especially vent window seals, that came from Brazil. They are so bad that they are essentially useless. Sometimes only OEM will do.

It really varies from dealer-to-dealer. VW dealers seem to be either REALLY good or REALLY bad, no middle ground, more so than other makes.

Funny thing is, although I've lived in a number of states and dealt with MANY different dealers, both the WORST dealer and the BEST dealer I've ever dealt with were within 10 miles of each other in Orlando, Florida.

The WORST dealer I've ever dealt with was Classic VW in Orlando (on South Orange Blossom Trail). They used to be fairly reputable as Bill Brown VW in the '70s and '80s, but after Classic took over they went straight downhill. The old mechanics left, the new mechanics didn't seem to know diddly, more than once they told me thing that I knew were flat-out wrong. I mainly went there because they were right around the corner from where I lived at the time, convenient for parts but they rarely had anything in stock. And the WORLD'S WORST sales team: One time I stopped in to look at a used Audi100 on their lot. I started out highly interested but the sales guy just kept piling on the BS, I backed out just before we sat down to do the papers. As I was leaving, both the salesman and the sales manager got in my face yelling and calling me names. I have never in my life struck another person in anger, but these guys had me *this* close to it.

On the other hand, the BEST dealer I've ever dealt with is Gateley VW in Winter Park FL (Just north of Orlando). Took my Jetta and Golf there a number of times in the mid '90s, they always knew what they were doing, were friendly, and when I needed parts they usually had it on hand. They even on several occasions even gave me the radio codes free even though they new the radio wasn't the one that came in that car.

I SUSPECT that the reason places like Classic are still in business is that, given their high-pressure sales tactics combined with barely-legal 'subprime' financing, they probably turn in better number to VW Corporate than places like Gateley. At least in the short term, until their reputation catches up.

- FM -

Maybe so. But it was not my intention. I do not question the fact, that VW owners in USA are (on average) not so happy. I also do not question the fact, that Audi owners are much more happier.

But if you look at the reliability as such (the fact this survey essentially claims), then it doesn't pass my smell test. Because surveys are based on peoples opinions. Which in turn are not always objective. Something like "Are your satisfied with your car? Yes. But the dealer was a jerk. So... no, I am not satisfied!" :)

Could it possibly be, that Audi stealerships in the USA are nicier than VW? Here in europe we see no difference, because Audi, VW, Skoda and Seat are often sold (and maintained) under the same roof, by the same people.

Oh, and another thing. As far as I can see, most of VW problems nowadays fall under the "minor" category. Which makes VW look bad in surveys, but not necessary reflecting the reality.

But not all the VWs sold in the US are built in Puebla. As far as I know, many of them are built in Europe and shipped to the US. IIRC Jetta Wagon, then possibly all the Passats. Those cars should be much better then, no?

And all the NewBeetles (technically the same as Golf4/Jetta4/Bora) are built ONLY in Mexico, including all those sold in Europe. No specific problems as far as I know (which would not be common for Golf4/Bora/Audi A3).

And there are parts, which are fabricated in Mexico and shipped to europe. Which in turn should equaly "damage" european vws and audis.

Or those parts maybe are just newer and improved? :)

Btw, I just checked: the most of the "mechanical" parts of the Audi A3 are not just similar to VW Golf4, but are exactly the same, carrying

1J0 xxx xxx code.

Vento in known as Jetta3 in the US. And I would say, that VW itself produces only tiny fraction of all the parts, almost everything comes from OEMs. Which in turn produce all around the world.

Yes, of course. But almost all the problems I read here are not US (or VW only, but not Audi) specific, we have the same problems in europe too. Such things as crappy coil packs, broken power window lifters etc...

And almost all of them are created by the overoptimistic "bean counters", which try to maximize short term profits at any cost, even if it will cost much more in the long term.

For example, the suppliers are consistently forced to live with razor thin margins. Sometimes they are even forced to sell below own costs, just to stand a cut-throat competition, with hope to get back the money on another order. So, you can reasonably expect, that quality will inevitably go down. There is plenty of evidence.

Exactly this wonders me, as I still can't see any rational reason for this.

Err.... Audi, if it floats your boat? :)

Mercedes has the same problems as virtually anybody else. They stuffed new models with lots and lots of fancy new gizmos, and tried to cut R&D costs at the same time. Of course, it backfired.

BMW has its own set of traditional problems...

SAAB is already dead, its just a badge what is left.

Mazda is not european :) Ford - yes, but I doubt you can buy any of the european models in the US. And even if you could, they are not that great.

Me too. On the other hand, I can't grumble about unreliability at all, except crappy electrical wires, which tend to break now and then. Everything else is rock solid.

But lets face it - nobody wants such a car nowadays.

Subaru WRX is just what you need.

"The A4's had a lot of problems which were resolved by 2003, but they were all fairly minor and VW did the right thing eventually."

You've go to be kidding. They must have skipped me. 2nd and LAST VW. They are unreliable and VW does not honor thier warranty even when their dealers maintain the.

Our key fob only works from a foot or two from the drivers window. The dealer actually told me to hold the metal part of the key to my forehead while trying ot open the car! True story.

Take a look at consumer Reports and go to

There are a lot of cars past 03 that still have problems and where dealer service is crap.

Right now the Saab 92X is cheaper with the US GM discounts. Drove one, liked it except for the seemingly long period before the power actually kicks in. :( For a car in the low US$20k's, it's a really good deal. I'd take it over the Mazda 3 anyday at that price.

Mark '95 Jetta GLS

They ask about both, but agreed to a point. A problem that's quickly and easily taken care of once is much more likely to be forgotten. Recurrent or problems that "don't exist" at the dealer, or "yeah, they do that" are not going to be.

The one I went too surely was! :)

Most cars in general have pretty minor problems. An notable exception being a mini-van I dumped a couple months ago... (a GM product)

True. From what I've been able to tell from talking with people that own them and reading about 'em, the Passats have been better. Not stellar, but much better.

As a North American, I apologize for that :)

They in fact looked to have worse finishes, but were better materials. That was one thing I liked about VW in the beginning, that the parts always seemed improved. If you replaced a busted part, key cylinders for example, the new ones were better made, beefier, etc, and not outrageously expensive. The last couple parts I've needed have removed that from the list :(

I've always wondered about these figures myself, based as there are on opinions and numbers of complaints.

Could it be that PART of it is just that VW owners tend to be more technically literate, and thus tend to pay more attention to the minor details than, for instance, a Daewoo owner ? Or perhaps just less willing to take it all in stride ?

And having owned 3 Audis and a number of VWs, I'm not convinced that Audis ARE any better overall. Perhaps even worse because they tend to have more cutting-edge technology, less tried-and true. But there's a psychological factor among Audi owners; nobody wants to admit they made a $45K mistake.

- FM -

"Most cars in general have pretty minor problems"?

Just in my neighborhood in the last 2 years there have been 5 vw product with major problems starting with my Dad. His 03 A6 wagon needed a new transmission after only 6000 miles. My next door nieghbor's 04 A6 sedan had to have a completely new engine put in due to engine sludge. Another neighbor's son's 03 Jetta was in the shop so much it was declared a lemon. Another one has horrible electrical problems and the fifth ( 05 Toureg) had to go in the shop for 3 weeks the day after they bought it for electrical problems!

Ugh, you must be living in a pretty strange neighborhood. So, dont buy VW's or Audi in your area, they simply do not last there :)

As for the serious note, all the defects you noted are not VW/Audi typical at all, except the "electrical problems" on Tuareg.

First, the Audi does not produce or design its own automatic transmissions. They usually buy them from ZF, as almost every other european manufacturer, except Mercedes, which traditionally builds its own gearboxes. And ZF is known to design and produce pretty much solid gearboxes which rarely cause any problems. Ask woodchuck, how many of them he has seen failing.

Engine sludge on A6? Don't know, your nieghbor managed to hit probably one of the hundred thousand. Or we would definitely see some headlines, about the failing Audi engines. There are a lot of A6s in Europe, most of them running as a company cars used by management, and are driven really really hard, as time is money for those people (and there are no speed limits on highways in germany). They typically fly really low, brake hard, accelerate hard and try to stay above 140mph if traffic conditions allow. And yet, I haven't heard of failing engines. Quickly worn brakes - yes. Front suspension which does not last - yes. All sorts of smart electrical gizmos going bananas - of course. But engines? No.