How's the PT-Cruiser??

I'd think that european/U.S./Canadian/Japanese engineering would be preferred over Chinese or Mexican. Last I heard, Japan and Germany were still making excellent steel. China - not so much. Probably need 50 years to get to where Germany is today, in fact - there's just such a gap in technology and expertiese.

Naw, just the race car has to be rear wheel drive. Ford runs the Taurus, Chevy runs the Monte Carlo, and Dodge runs the Intrepid.

All of them are fwd on the road. In fact all of the race cars are the same body spec.!! They have to fit common templates for everything except (and I may miss something here so please add further info, don't flame for incompleteness) for: the nose (grill, headlight shape, valance), the "quarter" window, and the rear windshield (this may not be true). Everything else that makes them look like the road car is done with stickers!!

Dan

"Canadian" made cars are considered "domestic" because there used to be a document called the "autopact".

It said that for every vehicle that the US manufacturers sold in Canada, they had to make one in Canada. So, some models were made in Canada and shipped to the US as domestics and some were made in the US and sold in Canada as domestics, as long as there were as many or more made in Canada as sold in Canada, they were duty-free. For quite a while, they made more in Canada, because they were cheaper and the quality was better. This all disappeared with the FTA and the NAFTA, however, and our industry is drying up faster than yours.

Dan

I did a search of 60 minutes transcripts going back at least for the last 15 years ago and could not find any reference to a payola type scandal. In fact 60 minutes didn't even mention consumer reports between 1993 and 1999. There was lots of mentions (1999, 2002) of the Isuzu and Suzuki lawsuit against Consumer reports, however. (The ninth circus later did rule in favor of Suzuki and the Supreme Court declined to take up Consumer Union's final appeal late last year.)

Read carefully. "CAR FOR CAR, MORE DOLLARS STAY IN THE USA" when it's a domestic brand. You're arguing with that?

That's the largest per-unit cost, yes, although the cost for worker and retiree health insurance rivals it nicely. Let's not forget that raw materials are not cheap, either, and finished components are quite expensive. You're not bringing much to the United State's economy in a "trans-Plant" auto factory if you ship completed subsystems overseas to be screwed together in Butthole, Arkansas by a seven-fifty-an-hour bubba. If you think that Honda building their cars in the USA puts them on equal footing with Chevrolet, you don't read much. Not to diminish the fact that it's an improvement over their building their vehicles entirely overseas at all. But the Chevy factory next door is retaining more dollars per unit revenue in the USA than Honda is, plain and simple.

I'm much more concerned about the overall cost, including labor but also including costs for development, engineering, testing, assembly, advertising, accounting, certification, transportation, worker and retiree benefits, etc., etc. If you think that the auto assembly plant is the most important part of the cost, you're not very closely associated with the industry, or don't understand it well.

Uh, that gets back to the total cost thing. You see, you DO agree with me.

Agreed. Tentatively. See below.

What matters most is where the TOTAL revenue goes. You know, if you read my original post carefully, you wouldn't find much reason to argue with me.

And by the way, countries with living standards comparable to the USA are few and far in between. Remember, we're a superpower because of our economy.

They do, and will continue to do so. The plants in China are by and large intended to build vehicles for the market in that country.

And you'll note that I said my well-being depends pretty heavily on the US auto industry, and I don't take lightly to things that threaten that business.

I won't disagree with you on this point until I understand better what you're asking government to do. I think a few well-crafted laws could help. I'm not holding my breath, though, well-crafted laws are exceedingly rare.

I think it amounts to this: the American worker's gotta make his case that he's the best labor value going, regardless of the price premium. He's gotta make continual improvements in order to justify his higher pay. And he's gotta stop acting like you're talking: that he's entitled to work.

On the other hand, he needs to be protected from foreign countries dumping cheap labor on the market, which is what's happening with offshoring. Dumping: We didn't tolerate it for cars, we shouldn't tolerate it for labor.

--Geoff

Of course he'd be wrong Geoff and you're always right. Cruise back through most of your posts and you basically call everyone a liar and expect everyone to believe your theory or statements.

Silly me. I shouldn't doubt the "World According to Geoff".

========

Never been there, have you? Been watching too many old John Wayne movies? My guess is you live nearer the Canadian border than the Mexican one. Yeah, Mexico has problems, but the assembly lines down there have a a reputation for turning out cars with better build quality than the ones in Canada.

Wrong. Dodge runs the "Intrepid" in Nextel Cup, Ford the "Taurus," and Chevrolet the "Monte Carlo." Not a single one of those is rear-drive in production, and Cup cars don't use any production car parts except a few selected body panels. The chassis are tube-type, the engines built by the teams from components supplied by the manufacturers (heads, blocks) and others (cranks, rods, pistons, everything else). Transmissions are Jerichos, and the rear ends are third-party built copies of the Ford 9". Yota is going to campaign a "Camry."

I'm not aware of any such a reputation *per se*. The comparison is difficult because as far as I'm aware, the same models for the same markets have generally not been built in both places. AA-bodies for the US and Canadian market, for instance, were built in the US and Mexico. LH-bodies for the US and Canadian market were built in Canada. What models have been built for the US market both in Canada and in Mexico at the same time?

My own experience with Mexican-built Chrysler products has been uniformly very good, but my sense is the Canadian-built Chrysler products aren't of significantly different build quality.

DS

You're right, you can't do a direct comparison except maybe for Ram trucks and even then I don't know if the models overlap.

But the Mexico-assembled PT cruiser, for example, has had a stellar reputation.

Back in 2001, the PT was awarded the best initial quality of any Chrysler. Don't know who bestowed that honor but it was a news item on many of the PT Cruiser sites back then. I know over 3 years later and 56,000 miles...the fit and finish on mine is still excellent. Only real complaint I have/had is the paint seems to chip easily. I have quite a few little knicks in the front of mine.

Hey, lookie here! I've got a cheerleader!

:-)

--Geoff

I guess those power window motors in LH cars were mis-labled "Made in China".

And like I said before, Toyota transmissions parts and full assemblies are made in Virginia and NC. A very substantial part of the car and employees a lot of people.

Read carefully. "CAR FOR CAR, MORE DOLLARS STAY IN THE USA" when it's a domestic brand. You're arguing with that?

--Geoff

My 94 LHS and 99 300M were both made in Canada with parts from all over the world. Unless you have actuals facts and figures, then yes I argue with that unless we recently annexed Canada.

By the way, billions of foreign dollars are invested in the US (including from countries we don't like). It is likely that Toyota has investments in US firms. They just don't leave money in the bank earning 1% interest.

Seems to me that the quality of the PTCruiser should scare the hell out of the US autoworker.

Probably not paint problem but the effect of having such a big painted frontal area going down the road compared to a sedan. Trucks at least have a big grill which won't show stone chips as badly.

Nah, let's take a shortcut here, Art. Just off the top of your head, how many of the employees at Toyota WHQ in Japan buy their groceries in the United States? How many of the 40,000 factory workers employed by Toyota of Japan buy ice cream at the Dairy Queen in Troy, MI?

Compare and contrast with Ford Motor Company WHQ employees in Dearborn, MI.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you answer with rough percentages. I'll give you + or - 10%, just to make it fair.

Read again carefully my original statement: more of the dollars you spend on a domestic-brand car stay in the US than would for a comparably-priced car from a foreign brand. More. Dollars. Stay. Here.

Or are you prepared to support the notion (with facts and figures, of course) showing that Toyota contributes to the U.S. economy just as much as Ford Motor Company? Since they're roughly the same size, I figure it's a fair matching up between the two.

--Geoff

Oh, yeah, and here's another thing: who said that there are countries I "don't like?" Don't project this crap on me, Begun. You don't have any idea of what countries I "like" or "don't like". It's pretty stupid to "like" or "not like" a country as a whole, ain't it? This ain't high school trying to decide how you feel about Becky Sue.

Still awaiting your proof that Toyota contributes as much to the U.S. economy as does Ford.

Just a general comment: it blows my mind that somebody would think this. I really find it incredible, and genuinely so.

--Geoff