Several months ago, I let my dealer do a 4 wheel alignment on my 99 Intrepid. When you get an alignment these days, is it customary for them to put everything in the middle of the range? From what it looks like, I just paid for an expensive piece of paper. The rear right toe and the total toe were slightly out of range, but they said that they don't fix these unless they are really out of line. Should they have centered the adjustments in the range (especially the RR toe and Total Toe which were out of range) or am I just being picky? The factory service manual preferred setting is the middle of the ranges...
(all numbers are degrees)
Acceptable Range Front Left: Camber Actual 0.0 -0.6 to 0.6 Caster Actual 2.3 2.0 to 4.0 Toe Actual 0.08 -0.05 to 0.15
Front Right: Camber Actual -0.1 -0.6 to 0.6 Caster Actual 2.1 2.0 to 4.0 Toe Actual 0.08 -0.05 to 0.15
Cross Camber Actual 0.1 -0.7 to 0.7 Cross Caster Actual 0.2 -1.0 to 1.0 Total Toe Actual 0.16 -0.10 to 0.30
Rear Left Camber Actual 0.2 -0.7 to 0.3 Toe Actual -0.10 -0.10 to 0.20
Rear Right Camber Actual -0.1 -0.7 to 0.3 Toe Actual -0.12 -0.10 to 0.20 *OUT OF RANGE*
Total Toe Actual -0.22 -0.20 to 0.40 *OUT OF RANGE* Thrust Actual 0.01 -0.15 to 0.15
You paid to get everything in range. They did not do that. Bring it back. Doesn't have to be in middle but has to be within manufacturing tolerances. In some cases some cars don't have adjustments available for certain cases unless you use 3rd party parts but the guy did not tell you that that was a problem. He just didn't do it.
The best alignment shop here in town does NOT give a printout when you come to pick up your freshly-aligned car, not even if you ask. Probably for exactly this reason. They stand behind their work; if it's wrong -- which it isn't -- they'll make it right. Works for me.
I do not have access to Chrysler's published alignment specs. But if the specs are published as X.XX as he wrote (and not X.X), seems to me that it is not BS.
Wrong. Most cars on most roads will "pull" to the right due to the crown built into the road. You need a level as well as straight road and they can be hard to find. Probably the best place is an airport runway, but getting access to them can be very tricky these days.
The correct way to tell if you car is out of alignment is to visit a competent alignment shop. You can also tell a fair bit by the wear patterns on the tires.
I haven't read the manual for doing an alignment for many years but the last time I did it said to FIRST CHECK TIRE PRESSURE AND MAKE SURE THE GAS TANK IS AT LEAST HALF FULL
That's great for you, but where I live, if you have your alignment done with that philosophy, you're likely to end up with strange tire wear problems and no leverage whatsoever to fight utter b.s. to try to get a warranty adjustment and repeat the cycle on the next set of tires.
I invested a little money a couple of years ago because I was having tire problems and could get no meaningful help from alignment shops, and without knowing what my alignmnet numbers were, I was blind in troubleshooting the cause of the problem. I had a fresh alignment done, and then went to another shop and had them simply measure without changing anything, and asked for a printout. Instead of a printout, I got a handful of numbers hand written down - not the whole set, for which they charged me what they quoted to have all the numbers printed out. I did that at two other places. The numbers consistently showed problems in my alignment which the shop that did the alignment did not tell me about.
I repeated the experiment - maybe the first shop messed up in doing the alignment - anyone can have a bad day. I went to another place and paid for another alignment, then repeated my "printout" experiment with more shops. Again - no printout that I was promised, problem with the numbers, and nary a word said by the aligment place about the problem, its cause, and how to fix it.
I learned many things about shops where I live from that investment: Most alignment shops take your money and don't provide a legitimate service for troubleshooting problems. Most alignment shops are dishonest (tell you they will give you a printout, but *after* they're done, inform you that there printer hasn't worked in years, and charge you the same amount for a few of the many numbers you asked for. If you want to troubleshoot a problem, you *must* have printouts to really see what's going on, and the fixes can be made for a fraction of the cost that a shop will charge you if you get them involved in the analysis and solution (if you can trust what they're telling you - but without printouts, you're opening yourself up to being taken to the cleaners on a wild goose chase, and if you're lucky, getting the problem solved - I never could until I took the problem into my own hands - and the start of that was getting complete printouts).
Just one of the things I discovered with my experiment was that one of the toe adjuster sleeves was screwed up, and was really hard to adjust. I found that the alignment shops, instead of telling you that the sleeve needs to be replaced, will just fudge the alignment - get it close - and not say a word. So you're not only not getting what you paid for, you're getting double screwed because your tires are wearing out early. Without a prinout, you're fair game. They have no incentive to give you long tire life, especially since you didn't buy the tires there. Their expreience teaches them that most of the public is too ignorant of tires and tire alignments to ever catch on. If you're the questioning type, they just as soon that you move on to the next shop so they can just do their alignments and tire replacement work at a very profitable pace and not be interrupted with annoying problems.
Any more, I wouldn't deal with a tire place that wouldn't give me complete printouts than I would deal with a doctor who wouldn't give me the scoop on what's going on with a mediacl problem or that I would hand over all my records to an accountant and have him file everything without my first understanding something about how the bottom line came to be (I know an honest doctor who did hard time because he did that - the IRS told him they were going to make an example of him even though they knew that the real problem was with the accounting firm).
Sorry - I just don't trust alingment shops to be honest with me unless they know I'm also looking at the numbers. I won't deal with one who won't provide them. I can't afford not to operate that way.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
So, you think that .02 degrees of total toe is going to cause "strange tire wear?" Do you realize that this is completely with-in the run out tolerance for the alignment machine, not to mention the wheels and tires? Do you realize that the alignment cameras could be dis-mounted, re-mounted, calibrated and the toe reading taken again and the total toe could easily then be well with-in specification? Do you realize that .02 degrees of toe when translated into inches at the specified distance from center equals the width of a line drawn with a #2 lead pencil? Do you think it's possible that after 5 years, the springs on this vehicle have sagged enough that once the vehicle is raised back to normal ride height, the total toe reading -is- back in specification? Did you look at the actual "thrust" angle, do you know how close to absolutely perfect it is?
Are you familiar with the term used in the industry called "chasing the machine?" AKA aligning for the sake of the alignment machine.
I see nothing in those alignment readings that would cause "strange tire wear" in fact, I see a very well performed alignment with consideration towards the vehicle tracking straight and compensation for road crown. But what the hell do I know, I first started doing front end alignments for pay in 1971.
Sounds as if you haven't found a good alignment shop. Keep looking.
I'm betting their experience also teaches them that giving printouts costs them lots of time and money on customers who scream "This says it's at
2.003! The spec is 1 to 3, and I the shop manual says it should be right in the middle, and that's 2.000, not 2.003! Fix it right or gimme my money back!".
Suit yourself. Printouts can be easily made to say whatever one wants them to say, and that's even before they're interpreted (or misinterpreted, as the case often is).
Here y'go, Mistah Putney, here's some numbiz for yiz. You want some more? Here, here's anudda setta numbiz. Hey, let us know if ya want a lotta numbiz all at once so's we have time to prinnem out for yiz!
You don't know this area - there aren't but so many, and most have little or no incentive to give better service and do a better job - the customers wouldn't notice if service improved - that's one of the problems. These are shops that would still be using impact wrenches at full blast if the public had not gotten somewhat educated over the years and the state didn't mandate that torque sticks be used for re-installing wheels during state inspections. These are shops that you have to remind every time you go in not to use clip-on weights on alloy wheels because 99% of their customers wouldn't know the difference. Got the picture?
That would be an unreasonable customer, easily proven by the fact that the manual says no such thing. The shop would indeed be justified in turning such a customer away for future business and would be no worse off for doing so. You're being ridiculous. What is wrong with providing printouts on request? I'm not saying give them out to confuse customers who don't ask for them and wouldn't know how to read them. Heck - I'd pay extra for the printouts if that's what it took.
True - but that requires blatant dishonesty. Medical records can be made to say anything one wants them to say, therefore, never look at your medical records. Bank records could be falsified, therefore, never compare your checkbook with the bank statement. I guess we shouldn't ask our doctors questions either - might make them mad, or they will refuse to see us anymore. Dan - it's the same concept as audits. People will go over the line in stretching things if they know they can't be or aren't being checked up on. Put in a simple audit, and most people will comply (unless the auditors are also corrupt, i.e., Enron/Gobal Corssing/Arthur Andreson, etc.) with rules and expectations. Simply by my asking for a printout helps keep them honest
- they're less likely to say to themselves "That toe sleeve is a little hard to get to, and it's almost lunch time - he'll never notice that it's a little out - heck a little extra tire wear won't be noticed, might make an earlier sale that way too - yeah - that's the ticket!"
And of course I'd be too stupid not be taken by that guy. Funny thing - I was getting nowhere and was totally blind before I started getting printouts. Once I started getting printouts, things started making sense, and I was able to eliminate three (all) problems on my car's alignment and tire wear. It went from annoying and frustrating to a dream to drive. It's amazing how the numbers are more centered and no longer just on the edge or slightly over because they know I'm looking at them. And when a tire gives a problem, I'm no longer presented with surprise alignment numbers that prove that that tire wore funny because my car has a problem that I was not previously aware of that they failed to tell me about (and of course they would tell me that everything was fine back then, and I would have to take their word for it), and therefore the tire warranty is void.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
I just got a nice printout from an alignment shop. Ranges are clear shown and before and after numbers are shown in color. Anything out of spec prints in red, stuff in spec prints in green. Highly unlikely anyone will argue with that printout.
Let me say one thing about forgeries like this. I too (although I never asked for them) have got printouts from the last couple alignments. The shops that I have taken the vehicle to all seem to have alignment benches that are computerized up the wazoo, and the alignment machine itself creates the printout, not some PC running MS Word or other. In this scenario I suspect it would take more work for the person at the shop to write up a forgery than to just do the alignment properly. The computerized up the wazoo alignment benches they are using are supposed to make the alignment easy and quick to do.
Neil - My comments were not about the specific numbers posted by the OP. I said *nothing* to indicate that 0.02 out was a real problem (however, I would have adjusted it as a matter of principle - see below). My comments were about conducting business with an alignment shop in general. If a person understands what the numbers mean, then they should facilitate a dialogue and the solution of real problems.
I was responding to the implication that the consumer should be kept ignorant of information on his own property that he has paid for. I consider it information that I paid for just like I consider my medical X-rays something that I have a right to see (and take to anohter doctor if I choose). If a particular customer is ignorant of their meaning and still wants to argue out of ignorance, then that is a whole other issue and is not justification for refusing to show all other customers what their own measurements are.
Now - the other issue that you, not I, brought up has to do with what's called gage R&R ("repeatability" and "reproducibility") and a philosophy of tolerancing and correction. When tolerances are given (on vehicle alignment or any other measurement), they should take into account that there is some non-repeatibility in any measurement. The resulting philosophy should be that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to fix and when to leave as is.
Whereas you, due to measurement uncertainty, are willing to give the benefit of the doubt in favor of the technician not having to make the adjustment, why shouldn't someone be able, due to the same uncertainty, to argue the opposite, i.e., if it's just within the spec. you must adjust it beacuse in reality it could be further out than the machine says. Truth is, both would be wrong within a reasonable and honest philosophy in the real world. Because of the uncertainty, if the measurement shows it out, then adjust it to within the specified range. A businessman should consider it delivering what the customer is paying for - not an unjust drain on his profitability.
My whole point is that, human nature unfortunately being what it is, people that would ordinarily be honest when they know that what they are doing is being looked at will strangely, in their own minds and possibly publicly rationalize dishonest behavior if the truth is kept in darkness. It applies to politicians, doctors, husbands, wives, and alignment technicians. One only has to read the newspapers and live life a few years to discover this general truth. Do you think Bill Clinton would have publicly declared "I did not have sex with that woman" if he had known that a dress with his DNA on it was in existence? Same thing.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Uh...okay... So, you just saw this as your once in a lifetime opportunity to go on a rant about alignment print-outs and inoperative printers on alignment machines.
I understand that.
Whoa... what happened to "I did not say, think, or imply that." Seems to be at the forefront in your thinking whether you're willing to admit it or not. You either trust the people you deal with as Daniel does or you have your suspicions which necessitate you scrutinizing a print out.
You previously made mention that many times, the printer on the alignment machine didn't work and instead, you were handed hand written figures. Do you know why the printers didn't work? It's because they aren't used, they aren't used because 99.999% of the customers get glassy eyed as soon as even the remotest of technical "dialogue" is initiated. I've seen it thousands of times, and having sold alignment equipment for a living, can tell you that a majority of shops could care less whether a machine comes with a printer.
Bill, the majority of consumers choose to be kept ignorant. Were that not the case, GM would have gone bankrupt decades ago.
You paid for a -service- when you requested an alignment on your vehicle.
It's justification if it is shop policy. There (to my knowlwdge) is no law requiring that print outs be provided after a service is performed as there is in many states requiring (for instance) that old parts be returned to the customer for inspection.
because, as you said above; "The resulting philosophy should be that you have to draw the line somewhere of when to fix and when to leave as is."
There is no point in doing something when the result is zero gain.
That truth in this case being two one hundredths of a degree.
Gee Bill, what if a bolt had snapped when the mechanic attempted to adjust that .02 degree inaccuracy, do the (now) extra charges involved in repairing that broken bolt justify the end result? They absolutely do not. If there's a leson in human nature to be learned here, it's that Daniel is better at picking an alignment shop than you are, and that he feels secure enough in his choice that not having a print out as part of the service he requests is not an issue.
I'm 50 years old and well aware. Aware that going after those two places to the right of the decimal point can and often do kick your ass in the worst possible way.
Yeah, he probably would have. The attention span of the typical american is about two seconds longer than that of a Goldfish, re: the re-election of Marion Barry as mayor of Washington D.C.
The alignment shop I just took my car too lets you in the garage and even in the waiting room has a picture window facing the alignment rack. No chance of forgeries. You can watch him do the work AND you get a pretty printout to show the results. Pretty printout does not mean bad alignments. And in fact if a shop keeps the printer working it probably means they get the alignment rack checked too once in a while.
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