Neil, I could respond on each point but it would be a waste of my time since they've pretty much been addressed previously and you seem to be as blind as a bat.
Although you would one minute deny it and the next minute admit it, you basically see keeping the customer in the dark and out of the process as a good thing and a boon to shop profitability. I see knowledge, used properly, as power, and it should not be viewed as a threat (even in the apparently wonderful shops where you are, but apparently it is).
Bottom line is that my alignment problems were not being addressed at all by trying your philosophy of dealing with alignment shops only to get little or no value for my money, and once I took the problem in my own hands, I was able to fix the problems. And for that you say that I am paranoid.
Where I live, for whatever reasons, good or bad, your way does not work, my way does. Maybe it's different where you and Dan are, and if so, then hooray for you, but you (Neil) are going to try to blame and insult me for saying it's different where I am. And BTW, I'm not sure Dan would buy into all the crap you laid at his feet either, but he can speak for himself if he is so inclined.
I saw more intelligent discussion from Lloyd in general than I have from you on this issue.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Blind? hah-hah... I see very clearly. Apparenty that scares or threatens you. Being someone who had trouble getting a decent alignment at some point in your life might make you an expert in your mind, but it doesn't in the real world.
No Bill, I am annoyed by pests who can't or won't pay their way. Odds are, you responded to some coupon in the newspaper for a $19.95 alignment, got exactly what you paid for and now every shop is crooked in your mind.
That would be great -if- you actually had knowledge. A print out isn't knowledge, neither is second guessing or arm-chair quarterbacking.
No, I say you are paranoid based upon the tone of your posts and your attitude in general.
"blame, insult?" I asked you specifically what you thought accounted for the differences you experienced, you chose not to answer. I guess that means you don't -have- an answer so I can only surmise that it's 99% sour grapes on your part.
All what crap Bill? If Dan was at odds to what I've said, he'll let me know since nothing has stopped him in the past.
It's real simple, you want to dictate how someone runs their business (speaking directly to your objections to Dan's original post), well that isn't likely to happen until you plunk down the half million dollars and open a shop of your own. Your comments about selling tires -and- alignments from the same facility are positively ludicrous and serve as a prime example of your delusions. If your prefer Lloyds company better, why don't you join him, he's delusional also. BTW, you'll have to do much better insult wise to even begin to get close to getting under my skin.
Hey guys, you've both contributed tons of great info to this group, and you both have some valid points about alignments. Can't there be an agreement to disagree? Comparing anybody to Lloyd is really low! :)
It sounds like you are the one that is threatened by the suggestion that some in your precious "professional" industry are corrupt. It's just human nature, Neil, so don't take it personally - happens in every industry.
Oh no! Now I'm just devastated!
Fixed my problem when the "experts/professionals" didn't, didn't I.
Yes Neil. You want to keep the printouts out of the hands of the customer. You can rationalize it all you want, but that is keeping an otherwise knowledgeable customer in the dark.
I paid my way - in fact overpaid my way. But of course you will continue to object to that red herring.
That isn't what happened at all. Last time I checked, $45 to $65 that I paid is more than $19.95.
I purposefully don't respond to such coupons, but you'll probably criticize me for that too. Proof that you assume whatever you want to in a vain attempt to win a stupid argument. I paid full price, and have always offered more if extra effort was required (seldom taken up on it, but it shows good will). My goal was to fix a problem and to pay what it took. The shops didn't see it that way - they felt they were entitled to the full price when they did a sh***y job. But you'll ignore that too just like you have everything else about this, or twist it into some negative lie. Get help - you need it.
A printout of measurements on a vehicle with problems doesn't add knowledge to help fix the problem - that's what you're saying. You're only showing yourself to be a total - and I do mean TOTAL - fool. So my tire wear and handling problems just magically went away. The fact that I systematically diagnosed and fixed the problems is pure coincidence. Yeah right.
"A print out isn't knowledge, neither is second guessing or arm-chair quarterbacking." Like you do with your doctors? Finding out information, asking questions, and finding out about options is not wrong. In fact, it's stupid not too. You can call it second guessing, arm-chair quarterbacking or any other of a bunch of clichés, but the way you opperate with service providers is complete lunacy.
That coming from you means nothing.
Your lying only makes it worse. That has been explained over and over. Sour grapes? I can't beleive that that would have to be explained to a
50 year old "man of the world". Sour grapes is when you lose and make excuses that you didn't want what you really wanted but you can't admit it (either to yourself or to others). Try reading the children's story book on that - I think it's called "The Fox and the Grapes" - you could learn a lot, but ya gotta start somewhere.
I actually got what I wanted - a well-handling, quiet, etc. car. That's not sour grapes. That's pure joy.
He's probably smarter than me in that regard and has decided that it does no good to argue with a fool.
Dictate? No. Simply excercising my options in a free market to not do business with a shop who won't give me printouts. That's dictating? Not really. So if you are shopping for a red widget, and the first store you go into only has blue ones, and you go down the street to the store that has red ones, you're dictating how someone runs their business? Only in *your* mind would shopping for what you need and not buying what you don't want be dictating how someone runs their business. It's called the free market system. Write it down: f-r-e-e m-a-r-k-e-t s-y-s-t-e-m.
No objections to Dan's post. I simply said that the situation was apparetnly different where I am and that it was good for him that he could trust the shop he goes to, but that I was not able to get anywhere until I got printouts. If you haven't gotten that point the first 4 or
5 times it's been stated, you won't get it this time either.
Nah - For the 4th or 5th time, I'm getting printouts now just by paying the full alignment price. What's so hard to understand about that? You need to get your arteries checked again - I think they're hardening prematurely on you. I'm 2 years older and am not having nearly the problems you are. Once again, you are undeniably wrong. You said I have to buy my own shop to get printouts. I didn't and I get printouts. Nanny nanny boo boo.
In order to say that, you must not comprehend what "conflict of interest" means. I'll type r-e-a-l s-l-o-w so you can u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d: A poor alignment often means faster tire wear. If the same shop that does the alignment also sells the tires, then the incentive, other than their own personal integrity, isn't fully there to do a really good job on the alignment. An unscrupulous shop could intentionally make the alignments marginal so that it isn't obvious to the customer, but that they sell more tires. Now, an aware customer may evenutally pick up on the problem, and go elsewhere, but an unscrupulous shop might think they will do better overall (the smarts of the particular population of customers will determine weather the shop really does profit more from the ill-gotten gain, but the owner may still try it and either profit or go out of business depending...). There - was that so h-a-r-d to u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?
"even begin to get close to getting" - nice phrasing.
Whatever.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Labor times for alignment procedures for a 1998-2003 Chrysler Concorde
Four wheel alignment, check................. 0.8 hours
Four wheel alignment, adjustment........2.6 hours
I don't know what else you can expect from a shop whos labor rate is $17.30 - $25.00 an hour, or, the alignment was merely "checked" which according to the prices your quoting would make a lot more sense.
I'll go along with Daniel that yours is a communication problem as evidenced by your plugging in a rant about "doctors," "lawyers," "accountants," "the IRS," "the price of fish food," "tires and alignments are a conflict of interest," etc, etc, etc....
0.8 x $25 = $20, and I paid $65! What are you smoking!?
Let's see - let's call it $20/hr (probably a little on the high side around here, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt). 2.6 hours x $20 = $52. I paid $65. Hmmm - what're you trying to pull now, Neil. Maybe we're supposed to add the 2.6 and the 0.8, but that would be bogus because I know for a fact they didn't even put 2-1/2 hrs. total into it.
It's one thing to fudge words, because they aren't always exact (but you still even manage to trip on your own feet in that category), but when you can't even twist a single calculation of two numbers to work in your favor, that's pretty sad.
Man - can I call them or what. You are way too predictable, Neil. I wasn't even complaining about the nominal price of an alignment (I was complaining elsewhere about not getting what I paid for, but not the nominal price (assuming they delivered the service to match) - I even offered more hoping that would inspire them to get off their butts). Fact is, Neil, $65 is the going rate for a 4-wheel alignment around here (actually anywhere between $50 and $65 - but I suppose that's my fault too). They didn't spend anywhere near 2.5 hours - I guarantee you that.
Here's what I wrote that you are stupidly responding to (after you said that I probably responded to a $19.95 coupon sale):
"That isn't what happened at all. Last time I checked, $45 to $65 that I paid is more than $19.95.
"I purposefully don't respond to such coupons, but you'll probably criticize me for that too. Proof that you assume whatever you want to in a vain attempt to win a stupid argument. I paid full price, and have always offered more if extra effort was required (seldom taken up on it, but it shows good will). My goal was to fix a problem and to pay what it took. The shops didn't see it that way - they felt they were entitled to the full price when they did a sh***y job. But you'll ignore that too just like you have everything else about this, or twist it into some negative lie. Get help - you need it."
You first make a wild assumption that I used a coupon for $19.95 with absolutely no basis for such a stupid assumption. I simply said that I paid full price, and even offered more when it was clear that extra effort would be needed, but was refused, and then predicted that you would turn even that against me. You know, I felt kind of bad after I posted that maybe you have hardening of the arteries, but I really do think you have a serious problem that ought to be checked out. At least if that's the case, you have some excuse for your mental state.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
You're joking right? You mean to tell me that the prevailing automotive shop labor rate is < $20 an hour? Which province of China are you referring to?
What did I trip Bill? You quoted $45-$65 for your alignment(s). $45.00 divided by 2.6 hours equals $17.30 $65.00 divided by 2.6 hours equals $25.00 or You paid a more normal labor rate of $60.00 per hour for an alignment check, $60.00 X .8 hrs equals $48.00 or $80 X .8 equals $64.00
Be sad all you want, but anyone with an education above the third grade can see that I'm not twisting a damn thing.
Uh..no, actually you can't. I guess you don't have enough fingers or toes to get into the -advanced- calculations.
Did you inspire them with anything resembling a realistic price, for instance, taking the prevailing labor rate in this local (nothing special) of $65.00 times the labor hours of 2.6 hours equals $169.00
An insanely unrealistic price, which anyone with half a brain would know is a teaser meant to sell ball joints, struts, tie rod ends, etc.
There's your problem.
A figure of speech you thick skulled dolt. Matters not whether it's $19.95 or $65.00, fact is, the pricing is suspiciously low that you are going to get either; a half assed job or the services of someone whos hourly worth is equal to what is being paid at McDonalds or Subway or as is usually the case and certainly appears to be in -this- case, both.
I don't need to assume a single thing. I have -your- numbers, I have a labor time manual, the math is pretty basic, and since I spend 25% of my day doing it, odds of me making a mistake are nill.
No you didn't. You paid the going rate in an area probably populated by cheapskates who've artificialy driven the price so low that it's impossible to get the job done anywhere near correctly. But you choose to live there.
How about a different approach, you being an informed consumer and all, you merely call around and ask for a price quote or a labor time quote for your alignment, when you get a quote that realistically resembles the actual labor time of 2.6 hours at a realistic labor rate of someone with actual marketable skills, you choose them. All other low ball jobs are then considered a waste of time and effort and you can avoid those establishments.
Shooting holes in your story is me twisting things into lies, eh?
Actually, I wasn't -that- far off. And, I didn't assume, I said "probably." Word to big for ya?
But Bill, you ARE an informed consumer, you should have realized something was fishy when you were being told $45-$65 to do a four wheel alignment. I see those numbers as being $100-$120 too low. Hell, you could have even posted it as a question here, I'd have been happy to look up the abor time for you and help you determine -realistically- what you could expect.
Yeah, well, at least I can do simple math. here, try some:
65 divided by 2.6 equals?
45 divided by 2.6 equals?
65 times .8 equals? How much dirt is in a hole that measures 2ft X 2ft X 2ft?
So how many people here have paid $169 or more for a four wheel alignment on a standard road vehicle: Raise your hands.
Not many hands raised there (in fact probably not a single one), Neil. In fact I doubt if anyone here has paid as much as $70 for a 4-wheel alignment.
According to you, in my area, your beloved industry is charging what the market will bear ($65 or less) for a service that they're fraudulently calling a complete four-wheel alignment. According to you, I'm having fraud perpetrated on me by the industry that you are defending, and you're mad at me for that. Maybe you're right about their fraudulent practices - that would explain a lot.
And you quoted a going labor rate of, what, $17.30 to $25.00/hr., but when I used a number in that range ($20/hr.) for the calculations, in your very next breath, you criticize me again for using a rate that you yourself said is within the range of the going rate - and asked if I live in China or something.
I called it again. You think the prices here are out of line (low), and you actually blame me for that because I live here and didn't move away in protest. "Yep - I'm gonna to New Jersey - quit my job and jerk my kids out of school, pack everything up in a U-Haul because they can't do a decent four-wheel alignment in Virginia. That'll teach 'em to try to f*** with me."
Have a nice day, Neil.
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Where did I say that that price was for a "standard road vehicle?"
Look, I'll say it real slow so (perhaps) you can understand it... Labor time to align a second generation LH car is 2.6 hours. $65.00 per hour for labor is close to the national average. One can realistically expect a complete four wheel alignment to cost $169.00, if the cost is (as you experienced) $100.00 less than that, something is fishy.
You may be correct Bill, but I couldn't help noticing over the years the number of posts similar to yours from owners of various brands and models thru-out the automotive groups who have the same complaint as yours. As for you doubting that anyone here has paid as much as $70 for a four wheel alignment, I'll just take that to mean that you
-would- be unwilling to pay a realistic price for such services which makes a lot of what you've said here just so much hot air. (I have this comical image of Bill flashing his $65 + 10% stipend for a puh-rint-owt around town like some hillbilly millionaire)
First of all, I am not -in- the alignment industry, so your association of ownership is indeed, very misplaced. Second, at $100.00 below established rates, where is the fraud? Fraud would be if you were charged $169.00 and recieved a half-assed job. You willfully accepted the discount, you got what you got, but what you got probably doesn't fit any known definition of a four wheel alignment. I suppose you'd buy a $99.00 refrigerator and expect a quality appliance also. (course, if it's only going to sit on the front porch, what more do ya need?)
Was I defending? I don't think so. I was trying to help you understand why you experienced what you did. I don't like it any more than you do, but YOU were the one who interjected your "rant" into this discussion, so too frikin bad if you don't like the answers I give. Perhaps in your next rant, you could post a list of the answers that you do want to hear, that way I'll be better informed as to how I should answer and avoid damaging your fragile psyche.
You think I am mad at you? Silly little boy... Whatever you do, DO NOT project -your- emotions onto me. Besides, how could I be mad and also be laughing as hard as I have throughout this discussion?
Right, except that you've also used that brush to paint the same on doctors, lawyers, accountants, wives, the big bossman at the coalmine, etc, etc.... You really aren't to be taken seriously.
No Bill, I extrapolated that labor rate from the numbers YOU gave. IOWs, I did the math backwards to reach a conclusion WRT what you were recieving.
Because for the life of me, I can't imagine a shop labor rate being that low anywhere else outside of some third world shit-hole. Is that where you live?
Well, before you leave, say hello to Jethro, Uncle Jed, Granny, Ellie May, Gomer and Goober for me will ya?
Front-wheel "thrust-angle" alignment, Metro Detroit: about $50. Four-wheel alignment, same place, about $90.
Having worked in the business years ago as a service writer, I can tell you that, at least around here, the labor study manuals are only used rarely, and usually then only by inexperienced service writers, who almost invariably overbid the job and lose it.
I don't know what the situation is in rural Michigan, but I doubt the people there pay more.
The shop where I had my car aligned charge nothing for a check and $69 if it needed adjustment. Of course they gave me that quote when I was getting tires at the same time. Their tire prices were competitive with everyone else. It probaby took less than an hour to align my Toyota Avalon. Don't see how they pay for the machine and worker at that rate. And yes I got a nice printout and got to watch thru a picture window.
Labor time for a four wheel alignment on a 2000 Avalon is 1.4 hours, just about half of the specified time for a second generation LH car. The price you paid is quite a bit more realistic...
Hmmm - I wonder why it's so much higher than for other vehicles. Measured the same way. Front toe in - two tie rod sleeves (loosen one clamp bolt) on either side to adjust. Front camber - loosen the knuckle-to-strut bolts on either side and adust the cam bolt, retighten
- just like on many vehicles. Front caster - no adjustment - that shouldn't take long. Rear toe in - adjustable tie rods like most cars' front toe in. Rear camber - no adjustment. Sounds like the rates are bogus/meaningless, as others have indicated - certainly no justification for the huge difference in book rates compared to other typical vehicles.
So far I haven't seen any signs in the shops that say "We charge higher prices for aligning LH cars because they take a lot longer to do", nor did any shops tell me they would have to charge more for my car. You know why that is? Because they don't take longer.
That's the going rate in this area - sorry - again not my fault. You can't find a shop that charges more here. I didn't shop around for the lowest bidder. Actually, as I said about 3 times previously, $65 is on the high side. So your conclusion that I'd be unwilling to pay a higher price is wrong, as are most of your assumptions and conclusions.
I find your fantasizing about me in any way repulsive and pathetic. As I said before, you need mental help, and possibly medical also - perhaps stroke or blocked carotid arteries - point your doctor in that direction next time you see him/her.
So you were lying when you posted (direct quote from an earlier post): "But what the hell do I know, I first started doing front end alignments for pay in 1971" (certainly past tense, but what difference does it make that you were in the biz or are presently - more dishonesty on your part - "Depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"). More intellectual dishonesty on your part.
You said yourself that you (not I) have concluded that the shops must've been pressured into cutting the charge for a 4-wheel alignment because of the public's ignorance of what's really involved, and therefore charge only what they figure people will pay and cut the service accordingly while still calling it a complete 4-wheel alignment. That is fraudulent and deceptive. You framed the scenario in your terms - I'm only telling you what you had just defined by your idiotic conclusions is fraud.
Charging any price (just happens to be $50 or $65 in this case), and calling it a complete 4-wheel alignment when, according to you, they could not be doing a proper complete 4-wheel alignment for that price - yes - that would be fraud. Charging whatever price for an oil and filter change and simply wiping the dirt off the filter without changing oil and filter is fraud. That is the equivalent of what you're claiming the shops around here (and, according to post by others who've chimed in, elsewhere in the country) must be doing - but that's your conclusion, not mine. I'm just saying that if that is what's going on, then it's fraud. Period.
Listen idiot: For the now, what, 6th time: I paid full *non-discounted*
*non-coupon**non-advertised special* price that is posted on the shops' boards - you know the ones that hang on the wall over the service counter that you press the numbers into that has dust on it because it has said that price for the last three years, yeah - that price - that is the one I paid. The shops' full price (7th time stated). The non-discounted/non-sale/non-special price (8th time stated). The price that you can't find a plcae around that charges more than that - that price (9th time stated).
Therefore, if your conclusion is correct, by definition: fraudulent.
Another one of your idiotic examples that, for one thing, doesn't apply to me. You sure you're not Lloyd?
(snipped more b.s.) Oh - yeah - you're just trying to help.
(more meaningless b.s. snipped)
Nice try. The common thread is that they're all human beings, and subject to the same temptations to take the lazy way out unless some system of auditing or checks and balances in some form or other is in place. You're not really that stupid are you? Dishonest, maybe, but not that stupid. OK - maybe some of both, Lloyd - err - I mean - Neil.
From an obviously exagerated book time for the job, as I and others have shown. Garbage in, garbage out as the saying goes.
No that's what you speak out of.
Yeah - I just said goodbye to your sister..
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Oops - can't forget this other quote of yours too, Neil, in this very same thread: "...and having sold alignment equipment for a living, can tell you that a majority of shops could care less whether a machine comes with a printer".
Gee - besides your own statement that you were a paid alignment technician, I can't imagine where I got the idea that you had personal ties to the industry, Neil.
Busted!!
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
Because it takes longer. No, actually, I'm making this all up in spite of the fact that the friggin times (warranty and customer pay) are well published and easily available to anyone.
You should have bothered to actually read the procedure. The knuckle bolts have to be replaced in order to adjust camber. Oh... we did go over that previously. Pay attention Bill.
No adjustment? I believe you were a participant in a discussion on that also. Yes adjustment. Pay attention Bill.
The factory warranty time is also proportionately higher, i.e.,
2.0 hours. Last time I checked, the factory wasn't making a habit out of setting warranty labor times any higher than what was necessary/what they could get away with, in fact, they tend to cut them to the bone. But you'd have known that if you had any actual experience other than that obtained from your armchair. (oh but Neil, Bill changed both speed sensors in his transaxle, he sure sounds like an expert to me)
Gee, too bad the labor times for warranty and customer pay, labor times established by time study, don't agree. Since there is an overwhelming certainty that you weren't there during the time studies, and have never even done an alignment on an automobile, your "Because they don't take longer" doesn't mean diddly-squat.
You should read what you write Bill, my comments were based upon your useage of the words "I doubt."
I find that you believe that I'm "fantasizing" about you to be self centered, naive and ignorant. So, what else is new.
Oh, now you're a medical expert? Do your qualifications in that area come from the same place as you qualifications on things automotive? I bet they do. Bill learned fixin' cars from Jethro and he learned doctorin' from Granny. Stay tuned for the 'New" Beverly Hillbillies, starring Bill Putney as "Jed," Bill Putney as "Granny," Bill Putney as "Jethro," Bill Putney as "Ellie May," Bill Putney as "Miss Jane,"
Wheeeeew doggies, I can't wait.
Bill, knowing how to do alignments and having in previous jobs actually -done- alignments does not necessarily mean that I am at the present time currently in that part of the business. If that is too complicated for you to understand to the point that you feel compelled to call me a liar or accuse me of being dishonest, that's your problem, not mine. You'd be smarter off to stop wearing your desperation on your sleeve where everyone can see it.
They're providing what the consumer demands. Since consumers such as yourself "doubt" that a four wheel alignment can cost or should cost or should take as long as it does, it's the consumer who is committing the fraud, the shop is merely attempting to meet them somewhere in between. It's the Walmart mentality in action, consumers are willing to settle for less quality because they are only capable of making decisions based upon price and the fact that most of them wouldn't know quality if it bit them on their ass.. The shop is faced with the choice of offering 'something' or nothing. To remain competative, something has to be cut, that is always the case no matter what the product or service is, but it is not the shops/stores fault, it is the consumers fault.
No Bill, there is a very big difference between a shop not actually having performed a service versus them modifying a service to meet customer demands. A better analogy would be shop "A" does a lube oil and filter using premium oil and a premium filter and the proper chassis grease, they check the lights, they check the tires, they inspect the drive belts, they check the brakes, they check the transmssion and differential, versus shop "B" who does a lube, oil and filter using bulk genaric oil and a genaric filter, they don't do any inspection of the vehicle, just slam it back down on the floor and drive it out. Shop "B" makes more profit than shop "A" but neither one is committing fraud, it's up to the consumer to determine which is the better value. Now we'll examine shop "A" versus shop "B" doing an alignment. Shop "A" sets the vehicle to the optimal settings for good handling, no pull, minimal tire wear and a centered steering wheel, the vehicle is test driven to make certain there is no pull from road crown and no unusual noises. Shop "B" adjusts the setting so that they are "in spec," close enough that the tires won't shred in the distance the customer is going on his way home, nothing is optimized, there is no road test so they can't even tell if the vehicle pulls or not but every setting falls with-in the manufacturers range of acceptable.
In both analogies, both shops want to realize the same profit margin, neither shop is committing fraud but there is an obvious difference in the end product and more often than not, the customer is going to choose the lesser priced, fewer sevices performed product than the higher priced, more sevices, more accurate product. The customer gets crap because he has forced the quality product off the shelf.
Yeah Bill, I've seen those menu boards, every time I've gone into McDonalds for a coffee, there they are! I mean good lord, how many times do I have to post it in these groups.... People-people-people, stop taking your car to McDonalds for service work. Who's the idiot Bill?
No Bill, the "menu" price, the MCDONALDS price. That price. The "a Big Mac is the same price no matter where you are, it's always the same price," price. The "always the low price" price. Did they have a clown on that menu board, was there an old man there at the entry way handing out shopping carts? Did you grab a job application?
Can't say. All I can do is relate the real labor time to perform the service, compare it to your data and tell you that something doesn't add up.
Why, don't you have electricity? (sorry, I didn't know)
A smart guy like you should be able to figure that out. (or maybe you can't)
What were you expecting, a crying towel? Sorry, fresh out.
Right. Every time something doesn't work out, it's because of lazyness and fraud. It must be a terrible burden to be so perfect. You are -SO- laughable. In one breath you tell -me- to get medical help, and in the next, you demonstrate the depths of your paranoia. As I said before, you are not to be taken seriously.
Dunno, are you really that paranoid?
What have I done that's dishonest? Please, find me just one customer that will come forward and claim that I've ever done anything dishonest to them. You know, honesty works both ways, I also have to be honest to myself and that includes charging the full labor time as it is published when I service a vehicle, since that is at odds with what you believe, that makes -you- the dishonest one. So yes Bill, your mechanics -are- dishonest, they're dishonest because they sell themselves short depriving those who depend on them for support (wives, children) to provide for them in the best manner possible.
Bill, the factory warranty labor time for a four wheel alignment on a second generation LH car is 2.0 hours, that makes 2.6 labor hours for customer pay very much in line and correct. The factory has NEVER been known to be anywhere near generous with their published labor times, NEVER. Warranty labor times are strictly based upon the actual hands on working on the car time, they fall well short when it comes to the actual time it takes to do a job. They do not account for the time it takes to procure the tools needed, they do not account for any test drive time, they do not account for machine set up time, they do not account for the time it takes to look up specifications and/or TSBs. IOWs, if you need to take a whiz, you better hold it until quitting time. IOWs, you are so clueless, you make me laugh.
I have no choice because that happens to be the part of your body where your brain is located.
Gee Bill, I was in the Cub Scouts some years ago, but I'm not now. What do you suppose -that- means?
You know, I struggle, I really struggle with the concept that there really are people out there that are too stupid to pour piss out of a boot even though the instructions are printed on the heel.
Sadly, as often happens, you are too stupid to even recognise what a fool you've made yourself to appear.
Why do you go out of your way to make your desperation so obvious?
Mine came with one cam bolt on either side (so, one camming bolt, one "normal" bolt per side). If the camber can't be adjusted into the acceptable range with the one camming bolt, the second knuckle (spindle)-to-strut bolt can be replaced with an camming bolt identical to the other one to double the range of adjustment. If that is required, the shop is justified to charge for the part and labor of replacing it. Not a big deal.
You misunderstand. The caster is not adjustable by normal means. *If* the bilateral (side-to-side difference) caster is out of range, the TSB that was mentioned talks about being able to shift the engine cradle using the normal clearance between the four cradle bolts and their holes to twist the cradle location to bring the side-to-side difference into spec. - but, again - that would not be considered to be within the scope of the normal alignment - it is expected to be within tolerance. That is a means to get rid of the lead if something is out of whack that is causing an out of spec. side-to-side caster measurement and associated lead/pull.
I only had one speed sensor go bad and replaced only the bad one, not that it makes any difference.
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Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
The cam bolts could have been installed previous to your ownership, even to the point where it was done during pre-delivery inspection. I can't say for certain whether the cam bolts come standard from the factory, tomorrow I'll slide under the Intrepid and see if there's any there...
I'm not misunderstanding anything, I've been jacking subframes to set caster dating back to 1978/79 on the original GM "X" bodies which was also listed as not having adjustable caster, even though it is.
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