Oil Change observation

And you *really* can't figure out why this was a stupid thing to do? Really?

I suggest you follow these tried and true steps:

1. place drain pan under oil drain plug
2. remove drain plug and allow oil to drain (good time to eat something or have a beer)
3. after slowed to an occasional drip, replace drain plug and tighten
4. move oil catch pan under filter
5. remove oil filter and allow to drain completely
6. clean up drips and make sure the filter gasket did not stick to the engine
7. rub a small amount of fresh oil on the new filter's gasket

1. re-install filter (get tight, but do not overtighten - 1 turn max after hand tight)
2. add oil (I put in 5 qts for my '99 3.8L)
3. start engine, run for 2 minutes, turn off
4. check under vehicle for leaks
5. check oil level using dipstick (usually right at MAX)

Good luck and hope your engine was not damaged too badly by the oil starvation.

Bob

Running your motor with little oil in it is gong to cause unecessary wear.

--------------------- Alex

Why would you do something as stupid as running an engine with no oil in the crankcase?

Matt

Somebody with your knowledge of cars should NOT be changing his own oil.

If someone drained all of your blood out, would you be surprised that you died?

Matt

If only for a few seconds, maybe yes

WVK

Its not like I made a beer run on an empty crankcase, just ran it for a few seconds.

WVK

And what is the purpose of doing this? To my what of thinking, anything that is done which carries a real risk of damage and serves absolutly no useful purpose .... is stupid.

Matt

...in which you probably put about 30,000 miles worth of wear on the engine.

Wow. Your stupidity knows no bounds, as it seems. Or at least no bounds you've displayed so far.

Hey Dan, with all due respect we all know YOU are smarter than me (and perhaps the remainder or the readers combined). That said, stop with the bull s*it pontification and answer the "why" question.

Never mind if it is stupid or not - just tell us why, and SUBSTANTIATE your opinion. Data would be useful.

Thanks.

Ken Pisichko

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

This "30,000" figure is based on what? Perhaps it is 80,000, or 20,000. What is the basis of this opinion? Probably just a figure pulled out of the air? or...?

Yes, running an engine without oil is not good - otherwise it would be recommended as a thing to do ((experience sez NOT). but to put exact figures on this event is, perhaps a part of self aggrandization.

Substantiate your figures, Dan.

Ken Pisichko

"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

I'll try my hand at tackling that one.

Another poster here ( snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca ) related a story about how at the MoparFest at NewHamburg they had a Sunfire with a 2.0 liter running with a brick on the accellerator for 20 minutes before it blew up.

Let's assume that this Sunfire's top speed on the highway was about 80Mph, that's pretty consistent with the smaller engine vehicles I've driven. At that speed it would be equivalent to a brick on the accelerator.

So that works out to about 26 miles running without oil before blowing up. (60/20 = 3, 80/3 = 26)

Assuming that a normal engine lifespan is 150,000 miles with an average RPM of 1200 and average speed of 50Mph. Without oil, it's lifespan is 26 miles, or .017% of it's potential lifespan. (26/150000 * 10) Another way of saying this is the wear factor (constant) in terms of miles without oil is 5769 times greater than with oil. (150000/26)

So now we can estimate the amount of damage you did. Let's assume you ran your car at idle for 30 seconds without oil. I'll estimate that at idle your running about half the RPM you would be going at speed with the foot off the throttle, so the damage is more equivalent to 15 seconds at an average RPM used for the normal engine lifespan estimation . Thus, you put approximately the same amount of wear that driving it for 24 hours would have done (((5769*15)/60)/60)=24 and at the 50Mph average we are looking at about 1,200 miles worth of wear put on the engine.

Of course, this is assuming your letting it idle. If you were gassing it for that time, so your average RPM was more like 1200RPM, you would have doubled the amout of life you took off the engine.

And this comparison is also based on a 2.0L. If your vehicle engine is larger, you would want to increase the amount of wear because the increased number of unlubricated surfaces greatly increases the chances of seizing, so presumably a bigger engine would fail faster, and not make it to 20 minutes without oil.

Also, you want to consider that the last 5-8 minutes of the life of the Sunbird's engine that by then the rings were so worn that the engine would not have passed emissions inspection without a rebuild, thus it was effectively used up. So assume more like a

So yeah, maybe 30K miles of wear is excessive. But for a big V8 and someone gassing it without oil, I don't think that 10K miles of wear in 30 seconds is that unreasonable.

And if your doing this every oil change, it's going to add up quick.

Ted

I have preformed this proceedure many times on many different vehicles (VWs Oldsmobile, Chrysler, Honda, Chevy)over many years. When sold they had anywhere from 75,000 to 175,000 miles and the engines were running smoothly without any knocks, rattles, thunks, clanks, banging or excessive oil consumposion. If what you say is true (30,000 miles worth of wear) then several of them would have never made it to those milages.

That said you-all have convinced me to discontinue the practice.

WVK

In most vehicles it likely would do not harm. But a better procedure is this. After the last drip, put in about a cup of fresh oil to drain out some of the residual old oil. But I only do this on my motors that lack an oil filter, and perhaps even an air filter, i.e.. (Honda 50cc motorcycle, Honda snow blower, a vintage roto-tiller, & a Honda lawn mower, etc). Remember, an oil is designed to break up the sludge and dirty oil and hold the solids in suspension until you change the oil. A bad oil stays "clean".

Richard.

Bill

You been watching the TV show "MONK"? Sounds like you wanted every last drop of "dirty" oil out and expect to fill up with 100% new oil. you must be thinking that this will extend your engine's life, when after the 10 sec. dry start you just took a few thousand miles off it's life. Of course the oil level will be a little lower on the dip stick after you just purged the oil pump etc. of oil that is supposed to stay in the engine. Adjust the oil level so that it is in the correct area on the dipstick, that would be alot more accurate than putting in exactly "4.5 quarts" when you used a non-standard procedure to expel more oil than usual. I still can't believe what I read in the first post! LOL!!

How many miles should I deduct for 5 seconds?:-) As far as oil capacity is concerned, I am still a bit puzzled why Chrysler states (in the owners manual) the capacity as 4.5 qt. when it is apparently 5 1/4?

WVK

About a hundred miles*. As for the oil capacity, they're assuming that you won't be running the engine dry during each oil change. The 4.5 quarts should bring the level back to the full mark after a normal oil change. If they said 5 1/4, people would be adding too much oil, which is also not a good idea.

• Based on the poster who reported the 20-minute lifetime of the demo engine that ran without oil. My assumptions: demo rpm: 6100 (122,000 total revolutions in 20 minutes) your rpm: 750 (62.5 total revolutions in 5 seconds) average engine life: 200,000 miles You can make your own assumptions, but based on mine, you used about 0.05% of the total revolutions required to destroy that demo engine without oil. There are many variables involved, so it's very difficult to determine with any degree of confidence just how much actual wear was experienced. That said, it's up to you to decide if you want to continue this practice. I wouldn't do it, but that's me.