Removing transmission

No, Tom, it depends on the VOLUME of air left in the system. On hydraulic machinery in the muffler factory, I've seen a 3" dia by 24" cylinder full of hot air bend a 3" exhaust pipe with a laminated wall 0.072" thick . . . .the heat coming from an oil based fire below the cylinder. Yeah, the set-up man lost his position because of poor housekeeping.

Then don't forget that all the power your engines make comes from coffee can sized volumes of air heated by burning fuel.

And that's why there needs to be a gap on the hydraulic system,

Now that could be a possibility.

-- Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!

Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,

common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs

are still important in our society, and might include

them in his posts.

Reply to
Budd Cochran
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Interesting that you have far more to say than is necessary, so some will be snipped, like it or not.

An improperly bled system has air in it. Air (any gas, be it air, or fluid vapor) can expand and contract due to temperature, and thus can allpy a small amount of pressure over designed pressure to the throwout bearing. In addition, vapor will cause inadequate release of the clutch, and thus the bearing will see much more use as the operator pumps up the system. Over time, this will cause a higher wear rate. Thats a fact, and its all common sense. If it wasn't true, there would be no reason to properly bleed the clutch hydraulics.

Clutch wear can only be caused by the TO bearing being shoved against the fingewrs of hte pressure plate. If you are going to claim that the clutch will wear faster (and it will, no doubt) then the TO bearing will ALSO wear faster. You seem to forget that for the clutch to slip, it needs something trying to disengage it, such as the TO bearing.

Jeez, I think I said that already, try reading.

This assumes the air/vapor is in the line, not the slave cylinder.

Rubbish. If the vapor is in the line and heads up to the master cylinder, it will have nothing to do with the slave cylinder position. Your facts are correct about air/vapor in the line, but if that is the only place air/vapor is, as you imply, it'll do nothing to the slave cylinder. You are again giving conflicting info and tripping yourself as you go. Typical.

You would think this, but you have no proof. Nor do I have proof otherwise. You are speculating, nothing more. We were simply listing reasons why a TO bearing might wear excessively. It could be that the TO bearing was flawed from the factory. Who knows.

Oh yeah, I bet YOU do..... do tell.

Reply to
Max Dodge

Budd,

Thanks for the warning. Just take a second and read what I took the time to tell you. LIQUID EXPANDS WHEN HEATED! Got it? Another poster tried to explain it but you ignored him too. Here one more time, LIQUID EXPANDS WHEN HEATED. If you don't believe me, fill a pot to the brim with cool water and heat it.

Sorry, but you are really starting to get to me.

Al off to cool down...

Reply to
Big Al

Budd,

Let me apologize for the last post. I think I just misunderstood your reply. What I think you were saying is air ALSO expands. Not that liquid does not expand.

Sorry, please except my apology,

Al Cooled off now....

Reply to
Big Al

. .

(Edited)

Very good description of all the work required, Marshy.

I am just a bit curious about the need to have the flywheel resurfaced each time.

My reason for this is that I used to have a '74 Ford 3/4............

...... the flywheel had deep grooves in it from the previous owner wearing the clutch down to the rivets. I didn't bother having the flywheel resurfaced. (young, no money, didn't care.)

=A0 I had no shudder from the clutch due to the worn flywheel surface.

Over the years, I did experience a couple of occasions when the clutch would shudder, but each time on disassembly I found it was because a couple of springs on the clutch plate itself had broken.

Have things changed so much that a new surface on the flywheel is critical to smooth operation of the clutch?

I can understand how a glazed surface would contribute to clutch slippage, although that old flywheel had almost a mirror sheen and was still just fine. :)

HD =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D (marshmonster) replies:

HoDad, No...... things ain't changed so much.

AND....... I don't have EVERY flywheel machined either. AND...... you're not actually supposed to machine one if it doesn't need it.

But...... he's working on his back, on the ground, without the benefit of an industrial compressor, a $325 impact gun, a $300 air ratchet, a top set of acetelene torches, and....... A LIFT !!!!

And...... I'm a perty good judge of when it needs machining or not.......this is liable to be the first flywheel he's ever had to make that call on! Would be a dang shame to tell him to not worry bout it if looked ok..... then him see some "heat checking" on an otherwise "smooth" flywheel and figure it was okee dokee. When in fact he's be flipping a coin on that call. He's jest better off doing it......don't want him come'n back cus'n ole Marsh cuz he got BAD ADVICE.....some of which has been posted in this thread.

I can roundtrip that unit in an hour!!

He ain't gonna wanna touch again after fighting it the first time!! rotflmao

so......

if......

HE.....thinks it's ok not to machine it, and HE believes the time it takes HIM to get it back out and back in again.......which i figure is going to be a day and a half....lol.....then by all means...save the $35 and take the risk.

I do all the time. But.....like i said.....i'm a weeeee bit quicker at it than he is....and...there IS the slightest possibility that maybe,,jest maybee....I"m a perty balls on judge of when one needs machining. I don't take the CHANCE.... because, like I stated, you're NOT supposed to machine one if it don't need it. No need to charge a customer for a flywheel if he don't need one......the more you machine it, the sooner the customers going to run the risk of HAVING to buy one. Especially if they're going through a lot of clutch's..for whatever reason. (kids...overloading...yanki'n buddies out of mud holes...etc..etc)

(In Summary)

1) No....clutch's ain't changed so much over the years.

2) No...it's not an absolute that the flywheel has to be machined on a clutch job.

3) Normal proceedure calls for NOT refinishing if it's not neccessary.

4) I'm not gonna tell some poor slob that's yank'n a 4x4 tranny out on his back, without any experience, and without the benefits of the tools that would make it a piece of cake..... to take a chance just to save 35 bucks.

hopefully yer interests were addressed MarshMonster ~:~

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

Budd was wrong on so many levels..... and now your endorsing him.

You on the other hand...are only partially wrong. The effects of gravity have nothing to do with the bearing apply.

It's the effect of that spring jammed in behind that "slave cylinder apply piston" that hold it all togeather.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net (Max=A0Dodge) aimed his propane torch at Marsh and fired back:

Set your own clothes on fire....

Budd was correct: Air in the line has an adverse effect on bearing release.

Air in itself can act as a spring, as it compresses nicely, and decompresses just as well.

Expansion and contraction due to heat is debatable, in that the effects could vary from none to more than enough to cause the bearing to wear more quickly than normal, depending on a circus full of variables.

Budd was correct: There should be a fraction of an inch of freeplay in a mechanical system. In a hydraulic system, not so likely.

That means I'm entirely correct, since you agree completely with that statement.

(considering springs in slave cyl's.) Assuming there is one, thats true. But there is not always a spring behind the slave cylinder piston.

Secondly, the sole purpose of that spring is to be sure that the piston is fully extended to the clutch fingers at rest, so only a single stroke of the clutch pedal is needed to release the clutch. Its effects on wearing the throwout bearing are almost as negligible as that of gravity on the throwout bearing.

As such, if you are saying it has any negative effect on the throwout bearing, you are incorrect.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

However, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd=A0Cochran) wrote to marshmonster:

I'm sorry, I didn't catch how many years of hydraulics experience you have and how many years of mechanics you've worked.

10 years heavy equipment mechanic/ journeyman millwright, 30 years small engine mechanic. Yep, both automotive experience and hydraulics in one low cost package.
Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

Al =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D because Budd rearanged all the electrons in the post so's he could rant fer his own benefit.. the following is in Broadway script form... (quite appropriate being as this has turned into a comedy)

(MARSH replied)

The slave does not back off the "throw out" arm. It stays in contact with it. (Release Arm)

Why..??....because if it didn't ..... it would fall out the ball seat on the release arm and when you stomped down on the clutch pedal the rod would shoot out into the bellhousing.....and the slave cylinder piston would come blowing out. Which would be a nasty thing and quite the inconvenience to repair all the time.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

Uh, Al, they make adjustable pushrods, don't they?

Besides, one advantage to a hydraulic setup is the ease, or lack of need for, adjustment.

With a hydraulic setup, everything can be slammed together at the factory, bled with a pressurized filler and sent down the line.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

============== ============== (marshmonster) replies:

HoDad, No...... things ain't changed so much.

AND....... I don't have EVERY flywheel machined either. AND...... you're not actually supposed to machine one if it doesn't need it.

But...... he's working on his back, on the ground, without the benefit of an industrial compressor, a $325 impact gun, a $300 air ratchet, a top set of acetelene torches, and....... A LIFT !!!!

And...... I'm a perty good judge of when it needs machining or not.......this is liable to be the first flywheel he's ever had to make that call on! Would be a dang shame to tell him to not worry bout it if looked ok..... then him see some "heat checking" on an otherwise "smooth" flywheel and figure it was okee dokee. When in fact he's be flipping a coin on that call. He's jest better off doing it......don't want him come'n back cus'n ole Marsh cuz he got BAD ADVICE.....some of which has been posted in this thread.

I can roundtrip that unit in an hour!!

He ain't gonna wanna touch again after fighting it the first time!! rotflmao

so......

if......

HE.....thinks it's ok not to machine it, and HE believes the time it takes HIM to get it back out and back in again.......which i figure is going to be a day and a half....lol.....then by all means...save the $35 and take the risk.

I do all the time. But.....like i said.....i'm a weeeee bit quicker at it than he is....and...there IS the slightest possibility that maybe,,jest maybee....I"m a perty balls on judge of when one needs machining. I don't take the CHANCE.... because, like I stated, you're NOT supposed to machine one if it don't need it. No need to charge a customer for a flywheel if he don't need one......the more you machine it, the sooner the customers going to run the risk of HAVING to buy one. Especially if they're going through a lot of clutch's..for whatever reason. (kids...overloading...yanki'n buddies out of mud holes...etc..etc)

(In Summary)

1) No....clutch's ain't changed so much over the years.

2) No...it's not an absolute that the flywheel has to be machined on a clutch job.

3) Normal proceedure calls for NOT refinishing if it's not neccessary.

4) I'm not gonna tell some poor slob that's yank'n a 4x4 tranny out on his back, without any experience, and without the benefits of the tools that would make it a piece of cake..... to take a chance just to save 35 bucks.

hopefully yer interests were addressed MarshMonster ~:~

Good enough for me. Appreciate your reply. Looks like you kind of understand clutches. :) Wanna finish bleeding the air out of my wives '99 Accord clutch? What a pain in the ass when you don't have the proper tools! Love Hondas. Hate working on them. HD

Reply to
HoDad

. .

a question...........

if the air COULD....expand due to heat and apply the bearing.....

then why isn't the fluid expanding and applying the bearing????????

air compress's

brake fluid DOES NOT

~:~ Marsh ~:~

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D snipped-for-privacy@SPAM.citlink.net (Budd=A0Cochran) replied:

Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . .

or have you forgotten how a hot air balloon works ( generally taught by the time you get to the third grade).

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

However, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0an improperly bled hydraulic clutch can, when the system gets warm from under the hood heat, hold pressure on a throwout bearing . . .just like it would be if you rode the pedal.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

~:~ MarshMosnter ~:~

============== ============== snipped-for-privacy@nc.rr.com (TB I am not sure that this is exactly what Budd either said or meant but if YOU actually believe this Max, prove it because in reality, you are dead wrong. There is no way in hell that an improperly bled system could cause excessive wear to the bearing but it is highly probable to cause excessive wear to the clutch. I don't claim to be a hydraulics expert but there are some simple facts that seem to be completely distorted.

First of all, gas, liquid and solids ALL expand to some degree when heated with the difference being that liquids and solids apply EXTREME pressure when any expansion occurs and gasses do not unless the expansion is significant. The reason why there is a slight gap required in a mechanical clutch linkage is due to the possible expansion of the mechanical parts partially engaging the clutch and causing excessive wear and slippage to the clutch, not the bearing. The return spring serves to stop the linkage from rattling when in full release due to the required gap as much as anything else. As for gravity, the weight of the fluid is so insignificant in a 3/16 line that I doubt that it could supply enough force to even move the clutch slave cylinder at all, never mind move it with enough force to cause excessive wear on the bearing.

Air in the system will also not cause the slave cylinder to move because if it expands, all it will do is push the fluid back into the master cylinder reservoir as at full release, the ports between the master cylinder and the reservoir are open, pretty much just like the brake master cylinder. It does however, have the ability to cause excessive clutch wear because it could prevent the clutch slave cylinder from moving enough to fully disengage the clutch when required due to its compressibility.

As for the bearing wear, I would think that it goes through as much wear sitting at a single traffic light while holding the clutch in as it does with a year of wear with the light to non-existent pressure being placed on it during normal driving when the clutch is fully engaged. It sounds like the OP simply has a bad bearing, possibly contaminated with dirt during assembly causing excessive wear and premature failure.

Reply to
Marsh Monster

. .

Air expands when heated, most fluids do not . .

Reply to
Marsh Monster

And edited to suit your needs again I see, LOL.

Duh, no shit. Thanks for pointing this out.

W R O N G ! ! ! In order for the "expanding gas" to build any pressure at all, it has to be in a CLOSED system and when the clutch pedal is fully released, the system is WIDE OPEN" Any expansion in the gas will do nothing more than push fluid into the reservoir and a contraction will pull a little out. Either was, NO measurable change in applied pressure to the bearing.

LOL, as you say, that depends on where the gas is. If it is in the slave cylinder or in the line close to it, all the pumping in the world will have little effect unless you can pump it really fast. So fast in fact that the slave never fully returns to its rest position and in that case, the additional wear is minimal.

Maybe in your world but for the rest of us in reality, it is pure BS.

Hahahaha, you are joking, right?!?!?

But is actuality, if the pressure plate is not being moved far enough to fully release the clutch disk, then the pressure being exerted by the TO bearing will actually be LESS than it would if the system were operating properly which would also cause LESS wear, not more on the TO bearing. Now if you think that air in the line will actually cause the clutch to slip under full engagement and cause excess wear to the bearing, that you really are an idiot.

LOL, it does no such thing. It doesn't matter if the air is in the line or slave cylinder itself, the same thing will happen and if you don't think so, then you had better crack a few books.

Yes, most of what you are saying is just that, rubbish.

Like I said, PURE RUBBISH. Once the master cylinder begins to move, It doesn't matter where the vapor is because it then becomes a closed system and at that point, the gas will begin to compress and reduce the amount of travel of the slave cylinder depending on the amount of gas trapped in the system. Now if you soemhow think that the effect will be different depending on where the vapor is, please explain, I could use the laugh.

What's the matter Maxi, did I upset you again? I don't need proof of this as I suggested that was the probable cause. If it was a failure by design as you suggest, it would be happening to most if not all of them and I don't recall seeing many if any other posts describing this problem and my TO bearing has gone over 100,000 miles so far. The problem is that all of your suggestions are incorrect and many of them would have other symptoms such as "pumping up the system" that the OP never made any claim to having.

Reply to
TBone

. . Diagnosing and Servicing Hydraulic Clutch

Address:

formatting link

Though not a complete resource for proof or theory......it still manages to negate almost EVERY SINGLE statement that Budd made in this thread about how he "thinks" the system works.

~;~ MarshMonster ~will gladly go back to his files for other resources~

Reply to
Marsh Monster

I think that you are comparing two different systems. The cylinder that you are talking about was in a closed system which gave the building pressure no where to go so it pushed the piston out with enough force to bend the pipe. In a hydraulic clutch, when the pedal is fully released, it is effectively an open system and any expansion of either gas or fluid will simply dump the excess into the reservoir without building any pressure by design.

And if the fire was as unintentional as you make it sound, he should have.

While true, you are dealing with both combustion and a closed system, neither of which exist in a hydraulic clutch at rest.

If the hydraulic clutch master cylinder is functioning properly, no gap will be needed as any change due to expansion or contraction should be dealt with by pushing excess fluid or pulling required fluid from the reservoir in the open at rest system.

I would think the most likely one but then again, not the only one. The OP also didn't mention if he drives with his foot on the clutch pedal which would as you indicated, also cause excessive wear of the TO bearing.

Reply to
TBone

Fix your quotes. I skip most of your posts because they are too hard to read.

-- Ken

Reply to
Nosey

And, pray tell, what qualifications do you have?

And learn how to quote properly. Your posts are hard to read and if you continue, I'm sure many, including myself, would rather just kill file you rather than wade thru the junk

-- Budd Cochran

WARNING!!!

Poster still believes that intelligence, logic,

common sense, courtesy, and religious beliefs

are still important in our society, and might include

them in his posts.

Reply to
Budd Cochran

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