I disagree. There were two emergencies, one of which led to wide-spread
contamination and several deaths. The risks of nuclear power are large. But
so are the potential benefits.
I disagree. You have weigh the potential risks and benefits. The benefits of
nuclear power are relatively safe and cheap power. The risks and costs of
nuclear power include the need to handle the nuclear waste on a permanent
basis and the risk of a disaster. In addition, the nuclear waste can fall
into the hands of a terrorists, which is not good.
Recognizing the risks and benefits of something doesn't make one a liberal.
Personally, I would like to see more nuclear power plants. Had you read what
I said before, you would also realize that I think that by having one
standardized design, both the cost and safety of nuclear power would be
Interesting that we can always blame the "tree huggers" for all of our
Yes... gas mileage hasn't improved over the years.... unfortunately, one
cost of clean air is to burn more gas to make sure all the gas is burned. It
is an idea that most can't grasp but major centers have experienced
improvements in air quality as emissions controls advance. All this in spite
of the fact that there are even more vehicles on the road now....
What is just as surprising is our readiness to "blame" the people that might
be helping us to save us from ourselves.. Sure, some of the tree hugger
rhetoric can be a bit tough to swallow, but I'm sure that we can all agree
that you can only shit in your own backyard for so long before you can't go
out there any more.
We've been over 3 bucks a gallon for a long time... you'll get over it
because life has proven that shit happens.... I might add that I live on top
of the stuff gas is made of and I'm getting stroked by big oil just as hard
as the next guy. Changing big oil is going to take changing government and
changing "accepted business practice".... Not a tree hugger to be blamed.
If it weren't for those with an intense interest in ecology, we all could be
facing a world that is no where near as good as it is today. Everyone
expects clean air to breath and potable water to drink.... just as long as
getting it doesn't change their ways...
I'm not a tree hugger nor do I play one on TV..... But, I do think that, as
responsible adults, it is important that we all ensure that we minimize the
"footprint" we leave behind. Using lots of petroleum products and having
clean air can be two very different things.
Can you explain why all plant life didn't die-off in the era before
Also can you explain why more children in America have asthma than
during the smoke-stack 1950s?
Many horrific environmental things happened thousands of years before
any White man stepped foot on North America. That is ignored because
it's one of those gotcha things. It can't be explained so we might as
well ignore it. Do anything to defend a position, lies are ok too.
I'm reminded of how much progress has been made with car emissions when
I attend the local antique muscle car show every year. We sometimes
forget or perhaps have never experienced what car exhaust used to smell
like in the days before catalytic converters and fuel efficient engines.
We owe a lot of that progress to the people who weren't afraid to make
their voices heard for cleaner air.
progress with emissions???
New Jersey is only 1 step behind California in the strictness of their
emissions laws. my 65 falcon continually did better on the strict emissions
testing here than most other new cars, until they started putting all the
crap in the gas to help "lower" emissions.
it still burns cleaner than most computer controlled cars, and gets 20 mpg.
but it got 25 mpg and burned cleaner without all the additives in the "gas"
you want gas prices to go down???
there is a very easy and gaurenteed way to do it.
if everyone would just grow a set of cookies and say "i will not buy gas on
then the refineries would have to shut down for a day, cause they would
overfill their tanks.
then the next week, do it again, but on another day. and keep on doing it.
and then target a retailer. monday, no gas from hess. tuesday, no gas from
sunoce, wensday, no gas from exxon.
when they start loosing money, they will get the message, and lower prices,
or have to drink it.
but this will never happen, because no one has the balls to do it.
The refineries would not shut down for a day. Plus, what about people who
drive a hundred miles or more a day? Even if they don't go to the gas
station on Tuesday, they will go on Monday and Wednesday.
How much profit should oil companies make? Utilities often have a profit
margin of 15-20%. What kind of profit margin should oil companies be making?
Remember, like utilities, oil companies are for-profit companies. They
invest billions of dollars in equipment like tankers, refineries and gas
stations and in drilling wells.
As to why people are panicked, it's because they are stupid. A lot of
people bought SUV's and other gas hogging vehicles with the
expectation that gasoline woult be cheap and plentiful for the
foreseeable future. Politicians are scared because whomever is in
power will get the blame.
Wrong. The inventories at the refineries would go up less than 1% -
and they fluctuate that much up or down day-to-day normally. Because
everyone that drives will either get gas the day before the big "No
Gas Day" or the day after.
They will see a small blip at the retail level - a high volume
station that normally sells nearly 48,000 gallons a day (I know of one
- 5 to 6 tank-truck loads a day, 16 pumps and a line to get to them)
might only sell 42,000 gallons that one day, but they'll see a bump
the day before and the day after. Enough for the statisticians to see
the difference, but nobody else.
Hess or Sunoco or Exxon might see a percent or two sales drop those
days - but if the extra 'day before/day after' sales don't make up for
it, it's easy for them to sell that gasoline on the 'spot market' to
an independent station. They might lose a penny or two per gallon,
but they won't lose any sleep over it.
Gasoline is fungible, it's a market traded commodity. Most of it
comes from a common transport pipeline and regional tank farm system,
and the outputs of all the regional refineries are commingled
(essentially blended) in the pipeline and the storage tanks along the
way before it gets to your local gas station. There's simply 87
Octane an 91 Octane, period.
The only difference between the brands? When they fill the delivery
truck at the tank farm racks, they put in the detergent and additive
package that the seller wants at that point - Chevron adds their
Techron package, Hess or Exxon might have their own 'premium' package.
If it's being sold to a non-branded station they add a generic package
that meets the basic Federal, EPA and Automaker requirements.
It costs a lot extra to ship a specific refineries' fuel to several
specific regional tank farms, and then they have to pay for a separate
set of storage tanks (87 and 91 Octane) at each tank farm along the
way. Only a few brands bother, and they charge a lot more.
Go find a local Community College and go get your BBA, then you'll
see this can't work. I can see it without one, because it isn't that
difficult - 'Supply and Demand' gets skewed in the seller's favor when
the Suppliers are in collusion and the 'market constraints' they point
to are artificially generated.
And the buyers of the products are mostly individuals and small
companies that can't combine to force a change of direction in the
marketplace. If we all belonged to Fuel Cooperatives that bought fuel
in large quantities on the futures market and 'banked' it for use,
that could generate enough clout in the marketplace to force change.
But there are only small ones in rural states, and you have to have
the money to invest in advance.
If you want to make the current system work, remove the excuses the
oil companies use for the higher prices.
"Restricted Oil Supply" - North Slope drilling, place a pipeline
through Canada to the Lower 48 to get crude here avoiding the use of
tankers, and provide incentives to get more crude out of older oil
fields in the USA through water or steam injection.
"Not enough refinery capacity" - well, that's easy enough - build a
few new refineries, expand the ones that are operating (provide tax
incentives for having excess capacity) and allow some of the shuttered
ones to restart. The oil companies deliberately don't have excess
capacity, or the prices would drop. They have created an artificially
Point: USA Petroleum (independent service station chain operator)
bought a shuttered small refinery in Ojai CA, and they wanted to
upgrade it to meet current pollution standards and reopen it to supply
their own stations. But the NIMBY's living in the area (who probably
work for other oil companies) kept it from reopening citing "safety
concerns" and "noxious odors". (Bulls***.)
Point: Shell tried to shut down their Martinez CA refinery that
provides 8% of California's Diesel Fuel supply, citing "Low Demand"
for Diesel Fuel - More Bulls***. The Feds made them keep it running
and sell it to Flying J Truck Stops as a fully operating refinery, and
it's running just fine for Flying J. They have no problem selling all
the fuel they can make, thank you very much.
"Can't afford to keep any added reserve inventory on hand" - so the
Feds need to build up a large Strategic Reserve of refined products,
so when there are temporary "problems" at the refineries (that were
"unforeseen and totally unavoidable" - Yeah, Right, Suuuuure...) the
Feds have several months worth of refined product on hand they can
easily release for use.
That 'Strategic Reserve" would eliminate the excuses for the
biennial market spikes as the refineries all "Change over to Summer or
Winter fuel blends" and during their "annual maintenance" and the
periodic "Fire/Explosion Emergency Shutdown" ersatz crises.
If the Feds place orders for Summer blend a month early in the
Spring and sell off the Winter blend in the reserve (and vice versa in
the Fall) they can buffer those annual periods.
And if they Feds can make a bit of a profit buying and selling the
reserves, anything over the actual costs can go toward paying down the
Having the Feds involved isn't my first choice - but the refined
fuels market has entrenched massive collusion between the major
players that is just this><much shy of outright corruption
As I see it, the solution calls for either Massive Market Regulation
(not business friendly or easy to do) or making law that
short-circuits the market collusions in place and keeps them from
developing new ones.
Make the Oil Companies play fair with us and each other, they'll
still turn a profit. They have an effective monopoly over a commodity
product that we have to buy, but aren't treated like it.
--<< Bruce >>--
I think if the traffic lights here where in sequence at all it would lower
the price. When the oil industry makes a statement they always say
its supply vs. demand, well if I didnt catch every red light then my demand
wouldnt be as high.
"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message
Here is an idea folks. While this started out as a novel debate on the cost
of gasoline, it has gotten WAY off track. If you want to talk cars, GREAT,
lets do it. If you want to debate politics, take it SOMEWHERE ELSE... I come
in here to read up on peoples car problems, and NOT see "60" posts to a
political debate. If you want to debate something, take it to that forum,
I would appreciate it if you could take this debate elsewhere..
Gasoline taxes are also much higher than they were in the 70's, which is a
sizeable portion of the money paid per gallon.
Environmental laws are also now more demanding, requiring new additives, new
formulations, and seasonal reformulations. This also drives up the cost.
The price of the gasoline itself, adjusted for inflation, isn't actually
It's easier to blame the "evil oil companies" though than our all wise,
"Bob Brown" <.> wrote in message
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