for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...

Looks like we found one of the zealots.

Go ahead. Point out any foolish thing you want to. It is not as if about

90% of other consumer spending isn't a target for the big waste of money line. The question is why this particular obsession?

If you want to do that then advocate for getting rid of the automobile as private transportation.

Doubtful argument. My hunch is people with this obsession pollute the environment significantly more than those who aren't so obsessed.

That doesn't explain the obsession.

Well the same could be said for any other cosmetic product, but so what?

Some people want to feel superior, or it could be they want reinforcement of their own beliefs, because they are not sure of those beliefs. But maybe when you see the same people saying they don't have to change their oil until 10000 miles go by, and they don't have to wax their car, it's a simple case of trying to justify their laziness and/or penuriousness. Like, "What, you bathe more than once a month? That's a crazy waste of precious water and heating fuel. Does no good and costs money." Could be something like that, but hard to tell without doing a psychological analysis. Personally, I don't care how often people bathe, so long as they don't stink up the place. Don't care at all how often they change their oil.

--Vic.

I think the source of your confusion has been identified. You mistakenly believe that the color of the oil is indicative of its lubricity and its level of contaminants.

Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil, eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There is no benefit in changing the oil earlier than this. You're not increasing your engine's life by changing your oil every 2000 or 3000 miles versus 5000 miles.

No i don't believe anything of the sort. The color of the oil indicates the color of the oil. The question I ask is why do you care if someone else prefers not to have a certain color oil?

Actually that is not exactly true. There is a remote possibility that those particles could become harmful to the engine. For instance if you are tooling down the interstate and you head gasket lets loose and suddenly it dumps a bunch antifreeze into your oil. That will very quickly use up all the dispersant/detergent additives in the oil. That means the particles that were happily being held in suspension doing no harm will start to rather quickly precipitate and agglomerates into larger particles and that can cause harm. Fresh clean oil can absorb more antifreeze before engine damage occurrs than old black oil can. Saying extended oil changes are safe is based on the assumption that the engine is always going to be functioning properly. Keeping the oil cleaner than it needs to be can be insurance against certain types of malfunctions such as when excess fuel, antifreeze or dirt get dumped into the oil unexpectedly. Those may not be likely occurrences, but they do happen. Also, the older dirt laden oil is much less able to maintain it's viscosity and shear properties if the engine overheats excessively. And in this day and age excessively overheating engines is probably the number one cause of lubrication failures. Blow a radiator hose and the temps inside an engine can very quickly exceed 250C.

If someone changes their oil often enough so that it doesn't get black they never have to worry about whether they have reached the point where the additives can no longer protect the engine from the dirt. For instance if someone has a half a dozen cars, maybe its just a lot simpler and safer to change the oil when it starts to get very dark rather than keeping detailed records for so many vehicles.

But who cares if you happen to change the oil before you absolutely need to? I mean you probably don't wait to eat until you reach the point where it adversely affects health. You probably pea a lot more often than you really have to. Many people don't wait till April 15 to file their taxes. Doing things before it is absolutely positively necessary is pretty common human behavior. The question is why is this one particular behavior the one that gets so many people agitated?

-jim

Sorry for jumping in in the middle here, but it appears to me that you're suggesting that the bad effects of a blown head gasket can be mitigated by clean oil. That's a huge falacy.

If the head gasket lets go, it won't matter if the oil was changed 10 minutes or 10 months ago. The contamination of the coolant into the oil is the least of the problem when the head gasket goes.

Well I'm sorry but the SAE doesn't share your opinion. There have been a number of studies on levels of antifreeze contamination on oil and its effects.

No not really, in terms of immediate consequences contamination of the oil can be the only real concern. A small amount of antifreeze lost from the cooling system won't impact on the engine temp and if the coolant leak is from the water jacket into crankcase then the only short term consequence at all is the contamination of the oil.

That is not to say you can't create a scenario of head gasket failure where it doesn't matter how old the oil is. Even if it doesn't matter most of the time, that misses the point. The point is that no matter how improbable it may be it is possible to have just the right kind of leak with just the right amount of leakage that whether the oil is old or fresh can make a difference. So anyone who tells you there is no possibility that the fine particles suspended in the oil, that accumulate with miles, is going to ever cause harm is simply not being accurate. The best you can say is that it is unlikely they will ever cause harm.

-jim

I hadn't noticed any obsession.

That might be a bit extreme compared with the simple advise of 'don't throw away oil while it is still perfectly good'.

Do tell, why would people that don't want oil pollution be more likely to polute?

I hadn't noticed any obsession, but now that you mention the word, I will say that you do seem a bit obsessed with this issue.

'So what' could be said about 99% of all dialog, right? Maybe the 'advise' will keep someone from wasting time and money on car wax...and keep them from harming their car's finish. Sure, it is a 'so what', but why do you feel the need to respond with another 'so what' complaining/obsessing about the first 'so what'?

I have seen 'severe conditions' described as 'lots of stop and go traffic'. If that is the definition, then yes, most people drive under severe conditions.

I noticed that you hadn't noticed

How about you recycle it instead of throwing it away.

It doesn't even cross your mind that someone who claiming to not want oil pollution might be a bit insincere?

What issue? Making light of people who preach nonsense on the internet? If that is the issue you mean Ok, maybe I did take a little time today to be obsessed with that. But since Im not one of those who enjoys changing oil often I get my recreation in other ways.

Or maybe your deluded about the impact of your words.

Recycle it? Is that like where the quick oil change centers run it through a screen and then sell it to new customers?

No, I don't take on face value that people who speak out against pollution are secretly plotting to pollute more.

Telling people not to waste time/money changing their oil every 3,000 miles is preaching non-sense?

Posting on usenet is not 'recreation'.

I have no delusions. I am well aware that the vast majority of people are too stupid to take good advise.

Well yes that would be recycling. Not exactly what I was thinking

If reducing oil consumption were the goal then driving less is the obvious solution. If you were focused on altering your life style so you produced less pollution, you might get to the point where your driving only 2000 miles a year and then you wouldn't be preaching 10000 mile oil changes. Would you? So no i don't think people who preach extended oil changes are really at all sincere about reducing pollution.

I reckon one can preach nonsense in regard to just about anything

But changing oil at 3000 miles is?

So now you say it does not keep them "from wasting time and money"

On 3/31/2010 10:17 AM Vic Smith spake these words of knowledge:

I believe there are people like that, Vic. I can tell you that generally, here in a forum where people come to ask for help in how to do all things maintenance, there are people who want to help.

I myself am both lazy and penurious - but I just spent 3 hours removing the haze from my headlights, washing my car and sealing it. I only wash & seal it every 2 weeks now, because it's time and work, and my Honda is

6 years old. I do my own oil changes and minor maintenance, because I am frugal, and because I need to know it's done right. I change my oil every 10,000 miles, on all 3 Hondas.

With respect to justifying what I do, all I can say is, f*ck you, shitbag. You have a very poor attitude, and clearly aren't here to help anyone.

With respect to the OP's question, I don't suppose many people really care how much oil, etc. that you waste - but it is wasteful, and harmful to the environment. Some care about such things more than others; I haven't changed the antifreeze in my 03 yet, because I haven't found a good way to dispose of the old fluid, and I would not pour it out. But I don't really care what you do.

Some folks try to share their experience and knowledge. Surely, sometimes it's for self-aggrandizement. Here, somewhat less so - it's too much effort.

RFT!!! Dave Kelsen

Looks like you've defined what camp you're in. And told anybody who may or may not agree with you "f*ck you, shitbag." Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, and thanks for all your help. You are one helpful guy. Carry on.

--Vic

jim wrote in news:ibqdnRpl1P-tDC7WnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@bright.net:

Your entire reply is very difficult to understand, is filled with negatives stacked upon negatives, and appears to my faulty brain to be pretty much ill-thought-out gibberish.

Should that head gasket let go in juuust the right way, in juuust the right place, and you're looking at...

I'm not sure the age of the oil makes much difference here.

"Obveeus" wrote in news:hovjra$9p0$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

Question for you: What's a "chemical"?

what's a dictionary?

Or pull the coil wire....

I don't agree with Tegger very often, but here I agree. This sounds like ill thought out jibberish.