Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?

As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring, after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly- by-wire steering. It's like a remote-controlled vehicle. It goes where you point it but there is no feedback. We also looked at the new GMC Acadia, bit too Tonka-toy for me. We have twin Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredos, with 140K miles so need reliability for long road trips. The Honda seemed a generation ahead of the others, and the new Jeeps are mere shadows of the old "real" Jeeps. And the Consumer's Report didn't help either. Remarkably, we had few problems with the Jeeps, and I used to drive from Dallas to Sacramento for the Jazz Jubilee, each year. The Honda is bigger, quieter, more fuel- efficient, more automated, more seats (can snug 8 people into one.) Just more of what we wanted and less of what we didn't want.

I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to fault or not. Any thoughts?

Chris

We still have our 03 Pilot, the 1st year they came out. Still drives like new and does not break. Although AWD it gets around 22 on the road.

Making Car Sense wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:

You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your advertised website.

ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of federal emissions-control regulations. In case anybody's wondering, steering is still steel-to-steel, as it has been since forever.

There were two problems with the affected Toyotas:

1) aftermarket floor mats (the cop that died was driving a loaner that had aftermarket mats which had bunched up and kept the pedal down), and 2) poor-quality pedal/sensor assemblies from a Toyota supplier.

The sensor problem has to do with gas pedal assemblies supplied to Toyota by a Canadian branch of a US company called CTS. This only affected American and Canadian-built vehicles. Japanese-built cars have Denso- supplied pedal assemblies. These are not subject to the sensor recall.

Note that Toyota, like Honda and all other foreign-owned makes, is forced to buy a certain percentage of their parts from NAFTA-eligible suppliers in order for their NA-assembled vehicles to be exempt from the various import tariffs. Just about all of Toyota's recent recalls have involved NA suppliers. Doesn't say much for us, that's for sure.

I have no cogent thoughts. I am old. Seventy-one years old. The first car that I drove was a 1938 Packard 120. The second car was a

1948 Buick Roadmaster. The third was a BMW Isetta, and the fourth was a 1959 XK-140 Jaguar, which I raced at Laguna Seca. Along the way there was a Jeep Wagoneer, and a 1962 E-Type Jaguar, toured around Europe, followed by a 455 Pontiac Bonneville, and, going back to Europe, a VW Dasher, and some others.

My only real thoughts are that (and I flew airplanes) that you really can feel things by the "seat of your pants" and that people who do not have that ability do not have "the right stuff."

Fly-by-wire is a neutral technology. You get it or you do not get it. The key thing is,does it work? As an aside and an insight into design, there was the case of an American aircraft which had the instructions for blowing the canopy written on the canopy. There were five lines and, if you followed the instructions, you blew the canopy at the third line, and then never knew what the following lines had to say. Better than a German WWII aircraft that had the instructions to pull, with both hands, the latches, and when the pilot did that, the explosive bolts went off so fast that both of the pilot's hands were pulled off. More than anyone wants to know.

I do not know what Honda uses as their throttle system, but my experience leads me to always have another "out." All cars can have "surges" and it is a poor driver that does no know how to stop a car. Now, saying that, I realize that my daughter-in-law, carrying our grand-kids, is pretty unknowing about how to do most anything in a car.

Incidentally, just yesterday I had to take the mandatory California 70 years old driver's test. The eyesight was 20/20 and I got 100% on the test, so I am thinking about this Ferrari......

Thus spake "Cameo" :

Well, the problem appears to be in an American made part.

I've always been "afraid" of my wife's Camry. When I punch it, it almost feels like a turbine powered aircraft. Sort of thinks and starts to spool up. Real mushy.

Her's is "one of the ones", but she has long known how to get out of that kind of mess. Toyota says to stick the car in neutral and pound the brake with both feet. Once it's in neutral it's not going to go any faster. If you're in a turn a little too hot, that puppy is going to step around on you in a FWD car.

22 seems good to me. The Jeeps got 17, when we were in Texas. Now retired, and in California, they only get 15, because the gas is diluted with corn alchohol. The politicos love it because they get state tax on every gallon, so the more gallons that you burn, the more taxes that they get. Few people understand this.

I own both Honda and Toyota vehicles. Toyota owners tend to want comfort while Honda owners tend to want responsiveness. While it might seem that potential Camry buyers would go for an Accord, I'd guess the numbers will be less than you think. The Accord will be too noisy and rough riding for many Camry buyers.

The Toyota floor mat issue has been around for a while. That didn't stop me from buying a new Sienna after putting 250K nearly trouble- free miles on a 1998 Sienna.

YMMV

Interesting comparison. I always wondered if newer Toyotas were quieter than Hondas because I sure find my '94 Accord pretty noisy. But then, I had an '84 Corolla before and that was also noisy as hell. True though that it was not in the same class as Camry or Accord. But how are Toyotas more comfortable besides the road noise?

Toyotas tend to have softer and quieter ride. Hondas are more sporty and better handing. Road noise has a lot to do with the kind of tires you put on too.

Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or worst in terms of quality.

Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years, to the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker. I wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by Renault?

That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage. Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

Maybe they should go back to the Datsun name. Any idea how Subarus rank in the quality category?

The German cars seem to have a good road feel.

On Jan 28, 9:03=A0pm, "Bob Jones" wrote: snip

Generally, previous generation Honda cars were sportier than their current iterations. The mainstream products from both these companies are none too sporty.

Yup, The Tire Rack asks users to provide input re. tire noise. That said, Toyota/Lexus is known for insulation from road noise.

It's hard to find a poor car in the family sedan class. Competition works. But if you look at last year's sales, Subaru and Hyundai are the standouts with increases while the rest of the industry took it on the chin. Car shoppers should consider how they will use the car (city? highway? lots of night driving? more than 2 kids?), where they live (snow country? mountains?) and buy something that meets their own needs (e.g., minivan).

My parents will soon replace their 1994 Toyota Camry after almost 14 years of excellent service. This car has not received a lot of care and has held up amazingly well in spite of that.

The Toyota recalls and just a desire to see the other offerings may have them looking at the Honda Accord. Their two main criteria are reliability and overall comfort. Road noise is definitely a factor. It also needs to have 4 doors, but will rarely have someone in the back seat anymore. The least important thing for them is how sporty it is.

They are also looking for something as close to their current Camry as possible as far as price, (adjusted for 2010 of course), gas mileage, and trunk capacity.

Looking at the Accord is a given, but I was wondering what other cars in this general criteria range they should be checking out. I have been researching it some and nothing but the Accord is really standing out so far.

Thanks!

Pat

I usually refrain from commenting on these blanket indictments, but since I have some first hand experience with both recent Hondas and Nissans, I would really like to know where you are getting this tidbit. It is simply not true, especially with regard to the cars. Recent Nissans, with the sole exception of the large trucks, are just as reliable as any Toyota or Honda and more "sporty" than either one of them.

I have owned '96, '00 and '06 Hondas (and Odyssey, TL & CRV) and '96, '97, '02, '08 & '09 Nissans (G20, I30, Pathfinder, Altima & G37). Currently in my garage is an '06 Honda CRV and an '09 G37S. My daughter has an '08 Altima which has been flawless up to now.

The Nissan are significantly quieter than than Hondas across the board, ride better and handle better. They haven't used timing belts since the early '90s.

I do my own routine maintenance. The Hondas are more difficult to work on (whose bright idea was it to put the oil filter above the exhaust on the back of the engine anyway?).

The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.

Good God, an 08 ANYTHING would be flawless.

I hope that's not your criterion for "it's a good car"...

Wow.

You were dealing with the wrong dealership.

Did you CALL American Honda and open a log on this yourself? Or did you just talk to the dealership service manager and take his word for everything?

Quick story: way back when, mid-80s, I owned a 79 Civic. Loved that car. Gas tank had a bad design, the straps held moisture and the tank rusted. Went to my dealer. "Yeah, that shouldn't have happened. Honda has offered to buy the tank, if you'll pay labor." Done.

Based on that, a year later my GF bought a 79 Civic. Shortly thereafter, rusting gas tank. "No problem," I said. She took it to the dealer nearest her--different from mine--and explained it all. This was on a Friday.

Friday afternoon at 4:00 she called me, very upset, and said that the dealer apparently forgot about Honda buying the tank, and wanted her to pay the full bill. When she reminded them about the campaign, they said "Oh, well, you can leave the car here if you like, and we'll talk to the zone rep when he comes by." "Bullshit," sez I. I called American Honda, the zone office directly, and explained the situation to the guy who answered. "Hang on," he said.

Ten minutes later he comes back. "Go pick up your car. You'll pay labor only."

Remember, this was at 4:15 on a Friday afternoon.

We go into the dealership to pick up the car, and the service manager is at the desk. She sees us and says, "Went over our heads, did you?" You bet your ass we did, sweetie. Fuck you and your incompetence.

25 years later I still give my dealership all of my Honda business, and they still treat people the same way--with respect. I've had several repairs taken care of under a goodwill policy, repairs that technically weren't covered by warranty but which a reasonable person would say, "Oh, that shouldn't have happened." And I've never waited to get an answer--the service manager makes the decision on the spot.

One time, I took it in at 7pm, and the service writer called the service manager at home to get an answer to my request for goodwill consideration. He granted it, too. Of course, he knows me, and I'm a regular customer. That helps.

It also helps to know that this isn't coming out of the dealership's pocket. American Honda gives the dealership discretionary funds to take care of gray area crap like this.

One month out of warranty? American Honda, had you called them directly, wouldn't have hesitated to fix the entire thing. Shoot, I had an idle air control valve go out 9 months--but only 3K miles--out of warranty. $300 repair, and the service manager didn't hesitate to take care of it for me, no charge.

You could have worked the system better, had you come here and asked.