No it's just that AWD is NOT the solution to better winter driving.
If you read the OP he says a couple of things that should have been the
logical extension of this thread.
1)"The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads,
just ice." And then goes on about how the front end is heavy so in his
estimation the car should be better on ice. This is one point of
discussion - should a car that is front-end heavy be better on ice (my
response is no why would you expect more mass to be better than less
when the coefficient of friction is less?)
2)"Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice?"
I don't think there were many answers to this
3)"I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?" Was there
any response to this?
I'm not going to get into your and Brian agreement to disagree. All I
am saying is that for all-around winter driving where snow and ice are
more than an occasional occurrence winter tires make a difference. Your
post that I responded to even said the same "For maximum traction, equip
it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set
of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels
for balanced handling." Of course this didn't seem to make an
impression on you so you needed to add "The only thing they left out is
that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country." Well
excuse me but we really aren't talking about most areas of the country.
I thought that the discussion was about areas of the country with snow
and ice conditions where WINTER (my emphasis) tires do make a difference
that even your supporting quotes seem to say. Just because you perceive
that someone is siding with Brian does not mean that it is Brian under
an assumed name.
I understand that they accelerate faster, but what part of "Better
traction won't guarantee shorter stops. Braking distances on ice were
about the same for the all-wheel- and front-wheel-drive cars." didn't
you understand? As far as I'm concerned, acceleration is a minor
consideration and it's meaningless if you can't stop or turn. AWD/4WD
does nothing to help either and 4WD systems can actually increase
stopping distances and adversely affect cornering if the hubs are
locked. Look it up, Matt.
You also ignored this paragraph: "Winter tires yielded the biggest
snow-traction gain for the buck, however. Using them helped the
front-drive cars reach 20 mph nearly 28 feet sooner than they did with
all-season tires. Cost: about $400 for four winter tires plus another
$200 or so for an extra set of wheel rims to ease the switch to winter
Gee, I wonder who's been saying that all along?
Winter tires DO suffice and they perform better than ASRs, exactly as
the article states. If I lived in an area where deep snow was common and
AWD was truly needed (the risk of getting stuck was high), I'd own an
AWD vehicle and as the article recommends, I'd equip it with snow tires,
too. I don't seen any benefit to AWD with ASRs compared to front-drive
with snow tires for the type of conditions I typically face.
Acceleration is the least important factor in winter driving safety and
again, you don't gain anything in stopping or cornering with AWD. The
fact that it accelerates better creates a belief in drivers that
traction is better than it actually is and the result is many of them
get in trouble. OTOH, snow tires improve ALL aspects of performance in
slippery conditions. Shame on Consumer Reports for not testing cornering
and braking, as it would shed an entirely different light on the subject.
If I can't get out of my driveway, then stopping is irrelevant. I just
gave you a long post detailing when AWD helps and when it doesn't, and
it helps in almost every condition except braking. However, 4WD can
even help in braking.
Why do you want me to do your homework for you? Couldn't find it either
and hoping my search skills are better than yours? :-)
I didn't ignore and had no reason to. I agree with it. I've simply
said that most people don't NEED more traction and thus ANY additional
cost is a waste of money. Moreover, winter tires are WORSE in the
conditions that prevail MOST of the time - dry roads.
Acceleration may be the least important parameter purely for safety, but
that isn't true for utility. If I can't get out of my driveway and up
the hills, then being able to stop isn't even a consideration. And I
handle the stopping very simply by not following too closely. I've
driven in winter conditions for more than 30 years with ASR tires and
have never rear-ended another vehicle or hit something because I
couldn't stop in time.
So let me see if I have this straight.
- You choose to drive a front-drive car, rather than AWD/4WD
- You choose to use tires that provide inferior traction to snow tires
It seems to me like you're saying one thing and doing another, Matt. I
believe they call that "hypocrisy".
Neither have I. So what? All that means is that we're both driving
within the ability of our vehicles to handle the conditions. Snow tires
provide an extra margin in the case of unexpected circumstances and I'm
glad to have it. I've driven relatively comfortably through conditions
where other vehicles around me were struggling and in some cases
literally sliding off the road. I'll bet that if I offered them snow
tires, they would have taken them in a heartbeat. ;-)
You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
"all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires
on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in
snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars
have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good
shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.
I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out
there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice
soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry
interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as
useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding
perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
That's certainly true, but they typically come with the same tires that
the same vehicle is equipped with for consumer purchases. The few that
I've actually looked at - generally because I was trying to figure out
what was wrong with them - have all been major brand tires and popular
I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like
that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the
performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think
differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the
same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with
most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try
winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they
didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire
companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth.
It sure beats your "I'm Brian and this is my opinion therefore it must
be fact" line of argument. You have yet to provide a SINGLE independent
reference in support of any of your claims. I rest my case.
Actually, I was a very good member of my high school debate team. Then
again, in a real debate your "it is true because I say it is true" line
of argument simply isn't accepted. Only independent references are
acceptable. It is obviously that you weren't even on a debate team in
Yeah, that will be the day. Matt, I have the evidence that proves you
wrong right on my car. I have direct experience with both types of tires
on multiple vehicles. You call it "opinion", I call it fact, as I've
lived it. You've never done any of it and you haven't provided a single
test that compares snow tires and ASRs back to back. The articles you
posted actually support my position more than your own, but you simply
ignore those parts, as others here have pointed out. If there's anyone
here who's arguing strictly on opinion, it's YOU, Matt.
The only place that's been done here is in your mind, Matt. I have never
once said anything of the kind.
Let's see. You've got a pre-determined bias and you completely ignore
all evidence to the contrary, as others have pointed out. You fabricate
issues and you blatantly mis-state your opponent's position, which
simply undermines your own credibility and highlights your desperation.
You divert the subject when you get cornered by your own lies, hypocrisy
and fabrications. If that's what you call a debate, you couldn't debate
your way out of a paper bag. I hope you don't have to make a living
convincing people to believe you. Then again, you sound a lot like a
No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure
isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are
Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying
trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that
buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily
argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I
could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would
be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires
instead of an SUV.
Your experiences are only the basis for your opinion. Many more of us
have experiences exactly counter to yours. I assert that the odds are
very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when
you assert that everyone needs winter tires.
Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my father's
car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads were poorly
plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived in Philadelphia and a
6" snow was a lot.
I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've never
thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they plow well, they
treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I can get out of my
driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace else, you have to use
common sense and slow down in snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going
to fare well, no matter what tire is on it.
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.