2007 Defender latest.

Huw Hi,

Some people have said that Defenders are classified as light vans and not passenger cars. But does this also apply to the ordinary Station Wagon "people carrier" models?

Take care Pantelis

Bad driving is the safety hazard, and it is my opinion (voiced previously in the NG) that the driving regulations should be seriously tightened up, including more regular testing of drivers. No amount of "safety equipment" will help, since risk compensation nearly always cancels this out. Witness the *rise* in fatalities following the introduction of both compulsory motorcycle helmets and seat belts.

Stuart

The fabled rise in fatalities after seatbelt introduction is something that's often mentioned, but figures are always lacking. I suspect there's some heavy statistical manipulation going on there to try to justify that statement, which is why I've never believed it.

It's like statistics used to justify speed cameras, on the one hand deaths have fallen since their introduction, but at the same time roads have been improved and car safety measures have greatly improved but that's never factored in. I suspect that "rise in fatalities after seatbelt introduction" is another one, e.g. raw figures quoted rather than percentage of drivers so increase in driver numbers is masked etc etc etc.

You must be of the opinion that a spike in the centre of the steering wheel aimed at the drivers chest would eliminate accidents. In the real world, accidents happen. S*it happens. When it does, the safer the vehicle and the more systems that help the driver avoid or lessen the severity of an accident, the better for all concerned. Your argument on rises in fatalities with increased safety legislation has been proven and is accepted to be facile.

Huw

Defender 90 station wagon is classified as a car just by virtue of UK tax rules. In particular it has traditionally been the case that businesses could claim VAT back on all models without rear seats and on the 12 seater station wagon but not on less seats. The 110 station wagon also needs an MOT from the first year from new in the UK and all 110's and 130's need a higher standard of MOT due to their weight.

Huw

Probably because the Defender is a work vehicle, not a family run-about!

Richard

In message , Huw writes

Private/Light Goods

In message , beamendsltd writes

ISTR reading that LR also intended severing their links with the military.

The speed camera results are often attributable to "regression to the mean".

It's something that happens when you pick sites based on short-term accident figures. A couple of bad years, higher than average accidentsm and the site meets the requirements to install a speed camera. But because the recent figures are worse than the long-term average, it's more likely that the following years will have a lower accident rate.

Think of it as like rolling dice. You decide the "install" when you roll a 5 or 6 twice in a row. The next roll has 4 chances in 6 of being less than 5.

Accidents don't happen by chance. Or, at least, not entirely. But the patterns are the same as if they were a chance event. If you don't overtake on a bend, it doesn't matter if there's a car coming the other way.

Huw thanks for the clarification.

Here in Greece D90 and D110 fitted with 5 or 9 seats are classified as personal use (private use as called in Greece) vehicles and are considered as ordinary cars in view of taxation and insurance. Three seaters are a different story and are classified as commercial or agricultural use vehicles with significantly reduced taxation on import duties, road tax and insurance rates. Agricultural use vehicles are actually allowed to burn tax free diesel.

Take care Pantelis

People Hi,

some time ago a URL has been posted with the results of a survey run by the UK police and MoT (IIRC) which showed that the Defender was the safest vehicle when you were to be involved in a car accident with fatalities.

Does anyone have it handy by the way?

Take care Pantelis

(snip)

Interestingly, this appears not to apply in Australia, where it is nowhere near the bottom of the list either. I suspect that the reason for both figures is that the driver is more important than the vehicle, and the typical type of driving for people who select Defenders is different. May also reflect the fact that in the UK the Defender probably represents a large proportion of the heavy "cars" where in Australia it is only a small proportion of the heavy "cars" (dominated by Landcruisers, Patrols, Pajeros etc, many of which are considerably heavier), and the average size of cars in general is much larger and hence heavier. JD

Introduction of compulsory seat belts in Australian states was followed by a massive reduction in fatalities - around 30% from memory (its thirty years ago). This followed the meticulously documented results of fitting (and compulsory wearing by employees) seat belts by the Snowy Mountains Authority in Australia in the late fifties (mostly in Landrovers) where road accident fatalities were effectively eliminated.

Another interesting safety figure is the use of mobile phones. In most if not all Australian states their use while driving is illegal and they are regarded as very dangerous to use. Yet there are no restrictions on their use in some US states, and everyone uses them while driving. Yet not only is there no correlation in accident and fatality statistics between states where they are allowed or banned, but those states that allow (as well as the ones that don't) them show modest decreases in both accident and fatality rates over the last ten years despite their use going from rare ten years ago to ubiquitous. Something does not add up. JD

Not the case with 109's though I wonder why, just as well nobody ever takes mine to a weighstation.

Air bags, traction control, side impacts bars and all that actually have a negative impact on safe driving. I think Ralph Nadar got it wrong, if those Americans really got the idea that the steering wheel was waiting to impale them if they came to a sudden halt it would have sharpened the mind somewhat.

Congestion no one can drive flat out anymore.

I dare say a half track is even safer, providing you don't use it in a war zone :)

Ah, but wasn't that (or at least in part) to do with the fact that the local council wouldn't give him planning permission to build/extend the factory he wanted to in the SW? Was on the local news at the time I recall. Don't you just love local councilors!

ah..found the article...

It's hard to speed on the roads around here, too many lorries! A significant contribution to road safety ;-)

Or they would be if they'd stick to their side of the road on the local small-ish roads! I've shat my pants many a time when I've been met by an 18-wheeler taking up far more than its fair share of a road after exiting a corner.