Anti 4x4

In a dim and distant universe , Dave Plowman (News) enlightened us thusly:

Oh I dunno. I'd consider a tow-bar essential for parking in town. Keeps bad parkers from scratching your bumper when trying to get into a too small space next to you! :-)

In a dim and distant universe , enlightened us thusly:

What I dislike is the 'nanny state' and other people who think they know best. I don't comment about their choice of car, so I don't really care what people think of my choice of car.

At the end of the day, most people buy a car they want, for their own reasons and not anyone else's reasons. Too many people these days (including the government) are too quick to pass judgement on other people, without sorting out their own mess!

In a dim and distant universe , Austin Shackles enlightened us thusly:

I agree - but it still doesn't give anyone permission to pass judgement on other people's choices.

I used to live in London myself, and owned a Land Rover. I used it quite a bit off road at weekends (family down in Wiltshire) and during the week I'd often walk or get the tube around London. Occasionally I might drive somewhere, but I'd probably use it less (with less polution) than someone who had a little tiny 1 litre car. Just because some hippy tree-hugger happens to spot me the one day I /do/ decide to drive, what gives them the right to pass judgement on my entire lifestyle? I probably used it less in town than they used their car - but they wouldn't know that would they!

I think too many people are quick to pass judgement on others without knowing their choices or reasons for doing things or buying particular cars.

In a dim and distant universe , Austin Shackles enlightened us thusly:

Exactly. It's got nothing to do with 4x4s but more to do with careless driving skills.

I've reversed into a number of places with no rear visibility at all - stuff in the back obscuring the rear-view mirror etc - happens in a car too. However, if I'm reversing and I know I have limited visibility, I take extra care, do it *very* slowly, or get someone outside to keep an eye out for me.

No real excuse for hitting anything, even with limited visibility!

"Tragically one child, often a toddler, is run over in the driveway of their own home every week in Australia. In Queensland, four children under five die each year as a result of a low-speed run-over and 81 children present at hospital emergency departments with injuries, usually serious, with 60% requiring admission."

"Q 28 children younger than five years died as a result of a lowspeed, non-traffic pedestrian impact in Queensland in the seven year period, 1994-2000 Q Low-speed run-over is the third most frequent cause of injury death for toddlers (1-4 years) in Queensland Q 60% of the vehicles involved in the deaths were reversing at the time Q 41% of the vehicles involved in the deaths were 4WDs"

You think it's some kind of class envy that requires buses to have a "beware of children" sign on the back? You think your big car can't pose a hazard similar to a bus, for kids in a school car park / drop off without you even in it? I've had all kinds of cars, and kids, your fixed image of driving down the road with a superb view suggests you have never driven kids to school. Either that or you haven't noticed how many drivers have no concept of their presence except from their own view, often with no adjustment for the type and size of car.

We haven't got a bad name - we have bigots attacking 4x4s out of prejudice, ignorance and inverted snobbery.

From the same source

"The over representation of 4WD vehicles is somewhat paradoxical in that studies of rearward visibility have found their high driving position means that they have rearward visibility no worse than some smaller vehicles3."

&

"Prevention Low-speed run-overs are often the predictable consequence of a child following a parent into the driveway area without their knowledge. These circumstances are similar to those surrounding the most common cause of death due to injury at this age, drowning in domestic swimming pools. Strategies for the prevention of driveway run-overs may require a similar approach. In the case of domestic pools passive changes to the environment have been found to be the most effective measure to reduce toddler drownings7 while behaviour modification and education campaigns are only effective if used in combination with passive measures

So again as in the Queensland study you quote the biggest problem is parental drivers. Well, under the proposed changes announced today if they cause a death by careless driving they can be sent to prison. And what can be more careless than driving over your own child in your driveway.

In message , Austin Shackles writes

Absolutely right - and you could have added 99% of the population don't have a 4x4

The real argument should be about private passenger carrying vehicles (judged by footprint), with large engines pumping out large amounts of CO2, nitrous oxides, CO, unburnt hydrocarbons and sulphur dioxide. Transmission system has nothing to do with it. My V8 90 running on LPG scores pretty well on 4 out of the 5. Oh yes and I do use it especially this time of year to support our local ambulance service in snow and ice and also used it along with others to help the emergency services and flood victims in Tamworth and Worcester areas last summer. I pass a school most mornings and the standard of driving of parents and their attitude to safety of pedestrians is appalling. Parking on the pavement, parking on junctions, ignoring right of oncoming traffic, ignoring yellow lines, pulling out without looking. Thank goodness I am in a vehicle with good visibility and can see the idiots coming.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

I get the impression that you think none of them are.

OK, if there's evidence to back that one up then perhaps my cynicism meter needs tweaking in this situation ;-)

No, and I can't see why you think I think that.

What fixed image would that be? If you're going to engage in a discussion, it helps if you don't run off and answer points that the other person didn't make!

I live outside a school and reverse my landy, pinzgauer and audi through two driveways out onto a blind road and have been for 6 years without even the slightest hint of an issue re blind spots. Good mirror-work does the job for me even though the pinz in particular has a whopping great big blind spot and no rear-view mirror, only the "wing" mirrors. If you use them right then you can minimise issues by keeping a check on what's moving around the edges of blind spots to make sure no-one moves into it. Starting off not knowing what's in the blind spot is the real danger. I've also not found the pinz or landy to be significantly any harder than the audi, if anything the landy is the easiest due to the truck cab and rear pick-up bed plus the high driving position.

Again though, idle speculation about which type of vehicle is the most dangerous isn't really worth it, given that danger situations depend on so many factors and each vehicle has plusses and minuses in their favour. You don't for example find people walking out behind a reversing pinzgauer and they're damned hard not to notice when they're moving!

What they really want is that you should have multiple vehicles: one for solo travelling in town, one for carrying more than three passengers, one to tow the 3 ton trailer etc..

That way you pay for several lots of road tax, insurance premium tax, local parking 'fees' etc., etc..

The average 4x4 has the versatility that allows you to do it all with one vehicle.

Helicopter?

I am still waiting for my strap on heli-backpack we were all promised when the future still looked bright.

And a bus or truck will do even more damage than a 4X4 but who complains about that?

I have noticed the way refuse trucks have increased dramatically in size over the years and they block the roads with absolute abandon caring not a jot that they are holding the bendybus up.

As for fire engines, what sort of MPG do you get out of a fully laden tender, and what is kinetic energy if you hit by one of them running the red lights.

I have been in many a car whose rearward visibility is no better than my

109.

It's hypocrisy to single out 4X4's what has the transmission got to do with visibility, it is the design. Besides not all 4X4 are obvious, what about subarus?

I wouldn't think you would worry about kinetic energy if flattened by a fire engine. :-)

Martin

It's not only visibility from the aspect of the 4x4 driver that is an issue here. If you drive a standard euro-box and are following a 4x4 then your forward visibility (and as a consequence your ability see what's happening further down the road) is almost zero. You can't see through the 4x4's windows because they're so much higher than you are.

In town traffic, where vehicles travel much closer together, this problem is exacerbated because the back end of the 4x4 partially obscures your view along its sides. So you don't see the child stood between the two parked cars on the nearside until he darts into the road the second the 4x4 goes past.

I beg to differ on your fist statement. As drivers of large 4x4's we do have a bad name and whether we deserve it, or not, is irrelevant. Over the past few years I've noticed a marked increase in the disapproving looks and comments from clients when they ask what car I drive. Now I just say it's an estate car.

Where we do agree is that the people who attack us for driving our gas guzzlers are bigots. Unfortunately those bigots are vociferous and have the ear of a large number of influential and often misguided individuals .. such as politicians and local councillors who jump on the band wagon for their own reasons.

Spot on, jg :-)

Driving a normal car behind a large 4x4 or Sprinter type van severely reduces driver visibility both directly forwards and just off to the side of dead ahead. These are the very areas that pedestrians, particularly the young, appear from; so whilst you may not hit them in your big vehicle you do nothing to assist the drivers of smaller cars following you.

I absolutely agree with you, Austin, school runs should be banned except in exceptional circumstances and the car involved could then be issued with a permit. I was fortunate enough to grow up in an age when parents weren't unjustifiably paranoid about the safety of their children and either walked or rode my bike to school every day.