Anti 4x4

Potentially 48 children of course depending on X, Y, Z etc.. However this is the kind of thing that makes this kind of conversation largely pointless, the plusses and minusses are so dependent on individual circumstances as to render hand-waving discussions irrelevant as no overall plusses or minusses are really justifiable. As an example, a generic stereotyped 4x4 might be more likely to kill a child outside a school, but on the way home the children inside will be safer than in a normal car, so on the kids killed front, which comes out better depends on whether there's an accident outside the school or on the way home. So what's the point in blethering on about it?

Come on, road trains are a whole different issue (and unique to Oz). Trucks and buses in Europe rarely carry warnings. Yes, higher class licenses acknowledge higher risk, but people are people. Drivers of bigger vehicle are usually more cavalier. Use google to look up "risk compensation" - the safer people feel in their vehicle, the more dangerously they behave until they reach their own "danger threshold". It's a recognised phenomenon, and one which seriously damages more vulnerable road users.

Stuart

You seem to be saying bigger vehicles ought to be restricted (or not?) because of the way people drive them? That's a separate issue from the vehicle itself in situations even where it doesn't matter who is driving. I agree driver attitudes are the biggest problem.

Hi Group

I live close to a school and see the problem every day except Sat & Sun. What happened to parents being responsible for their children? You see two (or more) women stop for a chat while their children run all over the place including people's gardens. I am also puzzled about 4x4s causing greater injuries because of their shape. I would have thought that the very low front of cars -wedge shaped would propel the person up in the air or hit the windscreen. The rear visibility is no worse than some cars - the seat leon cupra for one. The phrase 4x4 is much misused many women think a 4x4 is any big people carrier. I even had a stupid LibDem woman trying to recruit me but she put me right off going on about 4x4s, when I pointed out my neighbours Toyota 4x4 performance saloon she would not accept that it was a

SG: That's a radical sideways leap in extrapolation from what I wrote :-)

Or are drivers of smaller

SG: Of course they are, but in crowded city streets there are inevitably times when vehicles become bunched together (e.g. at pedestrian crossings, traffic lights and when oncoming traffic forces you to move into and out of gaps between parked cars on your side of the road). It is in these situations where the driver following a larger vehicle has reduced visibility and it just happens to coincide with situations where pedestrians are likely to chance their luck dodging between the cars.

SG: As an advanced driving skills trainer I tell my "pupils" that they should be able to see the bottom of the rear tyres of the car in front plus a bit of tarmac when we pull up behind another vehicle. Probably not a metre but enough room to allow us to negotiate past the vehicle in the event it stalls or breaks down.

Maintaining a 2 second gap in free flowing city traffic is okay but in start-stop situations it extends the length of traffic flows and can be the cause of frustration for other drivers - leading them to make inappropriate decisions and maybe endangering lives.

SG: Whilst I'd like to support that claim I can't. I've seen plenty of Land Rovers being driven badly as any other make. The vehicle you drive doesn't make you a better or worse driver - it's the way you were taught and your mindset that does that.

SG: Now here we have some common ground but rather than re-passing the same old low-level L-test every five years why not make passing an advanced driving test compulsory for all new drivers within 5 years of passing the L-test? Drivers who take an advanced driving course and pass the test seldom go back to their old bad habits afterwards.

A quote from "Roadcraft" - the police driving bible:

"Most drivers think they are both safer and more skilful than the average driver - but we cannot all be right. In more than 90% of traffic accidents, human error is the cause; accidents do not just happen by chance, they are the consequence of unsafe driving practices. Driving safely cannot be thought of as an add-on extra; it has to be built into the way you drive"

Yes, because if it's only the school bus plus a handful of cars on the school run the visibility, congestion and frustration elements of the situation are removed. Let's face it, in cities most children live within walking distance of their school so local authorities would only require a small number of buses.

Okay, I drive a "generic stereotyped" 4x4 - aka Discovery 1. Where is your evidence that children travelling inside it are safer than in a generic stereotypical euro-box - like a Mondeo or Laguna? A large proportion of Land Rover drivers drive older vehicles (it's part of their attraction) and these older vehicles weren't subject to compulsory safety testing and didn't have to meet safety standards as they are classed as dual purpose vehicles.

SG: Then you must drive with blinkers

SG: I was actually agreeing with you. Perhaps your blinkers prevented you from looking above your navel and appreciating that

It's not much of a leap, after all if small cars can't see past larger cars and can't see over parked small cars so well then they're more dangerous when moving forwards, even if they are less dangerous when moving backwards... Somewhat over-simplistic arguments, but then they all are in this particular subject area.

Oh my, you mean there's more to this thing than just big vehicle versus small vehicle? oooh I'm so confused ;-)

Stuart Gray wrote: snip

snip

The OP of the thread was about 4x4 bashing and this is, after all, a Land Rover newsgroup

Well, there's the link posted in here a few times now from the insurance industry that listed the safest vehicle to be in in an accident, topped by the Defender. I don't remember if the Discovery was one of the vehicles they reported on or not but there's not a huge difference between them construction-wise.

Also heavier vehicles to tend to come out of accidents better than lighter ones, for fairly obvious reasons, there's been a fair few past articles on such things if you care to do a bit of googling.

In article , SteveG writes

The road outside is a "B" road and it's collapsing ten feet from my window because of 44 tonne lorries using it. They are literally pulverising the concrete sub-surface into gravel. They shake the house and are almost certainly causing damage. Some of these are tipper lorries going to and leaving waste depots miles away, and some are retail trunkers.

So Mondeos probably aren't a significant factor, but IMHO road "transport" operations should bear a higher direct tax related to their environmental cost. It might change the way things are sold and distributed, but as the country's overpopulated by about 50% now, I can't see any government taking this one on, and it'll probably only get much worse.

Regards,

Simonm.

I am saying exactly that. For the most part, the size and type of vehicle is irrelevant - a good driver will drive any size vehicle well, a bad driver could fail to spot someone no matter what.

Stuart

Smaller vehicles and more frequent collections, that's the way it used to be.

Anyway it is not just the refuse trucks, but these days every local store seems to have an artic delivering to them instead of a van.

Ok larger vehicles are in the long run more economical on fuel, but surely local deliveries are a case in point for electric vehicles. Mind you the co-op used to maintain one (not seen it for a while), and that was as slow as a milk float.

They are too big for suburban roads which were never designed for them. The fact that buses have gradually increased in width from when I was a lad has something to do with it to.

You can't blame 4wd's for being oversized, everything else is getting bigger too (well smart cars and super minis excepted)

Yes and I would never consider a series a suitable vehicle for the school run, for one reason alone the lack of seatbelts.

Then again I do remember from my junior school days one girl who was regularly dropped off in a landie. Her dad was a farmer.