Greenlaning Scotland?

I'm definitely can deny that :-(

There are *very few* unsealed public rights of way that can legally be driven in a motor vehicle in Scotland.

The main criteria for establishing a public Right of Way in Scotland at common law are:

The big difficulties are [iii] and [iv]. On a practical level, you'll find very few routes you could drive anyway. From my experience, I think landowners in Scotland buy more gates, padlocks and chains (and probably shotguns too) than anywhere else on the planet.

RoW are not shown on OS maps for Scotland because there is no public register of rights of way. The legislation that created Definitive Maps for England & Wales did not apply to Scotland.

The Scottish Rights of Way and Access Society (Scotways) have a catalogue of all known RoW in Scotland (about 8000) - but only 140 of these are vehicular. Unfortunately, the catalogue (known as CROW) is not currently publicly available. The Scotways website is worth a look at:

The online GLASS Wayfinder database has a *few* routes in Scotland which are

The most significant of the Scottish 4x4 clubs is probably the Scottish Land Rover Owners Club. You might find their "Green Laning" page of interest:

Cheers Andrew Kay

Dear All,

Going up to Scotland for Hogmany, staying in Maillaig on West Coast.

Two Questions, first is complex second is easier both are best answered by an inhabitant. ( of that big vast empty bit of the country!)

I have been googling and seem to have turned up the following can anybody confirm or deny for me to set my mind to rest. Due to right to roam, no rights of access are marked on Scottish OS maps, I can tell this by looking at the ones I have. As a walker you can walk anywhere unless it is construed by the land owner that you intend to damage land buildings or livestock/game. Under which circumstance you may be prosecuted for trespass (Or rather shot at, with Salt!) As a Greenlaner any track connecting two public places i.e. two classified roads is a classed as a byway and may be driven as such bearing in mind sensitivities such as driving through peoples gardens/farmyards/etc etc. Can anybody deny or confirm if this is the case?

Secondly can *anybody* reccomend any tracks near the mallaig area, willing to travel out/down to Fort William for day trips or equivelent distances. Severity not really any issue as there will be a 110 and Rangie present at all times.

TIA,

Mark E450 TFL OneTen Ex Military Hard Top (Cr*p Heater) Y437 JFO 110 TD5 Double Cab (Fantastic Heater)

PS. I know I may be posting OT slight for the NG so if thats the case please advise of a more suitable place to post. PPS. I could ask for an obscure engine part of it helps.

"Paul S. Brown" wrote

Sounds like potential for the trip up and down! any more tips?

As an addendum there are some oddities pertaining to rights of way in Scotland which are enacted by local byelaws - the one that I can remember is a case of enclosed estates which have a viable route through them revert to public right of way if the gates at each end of the route are not closed at midnight on May 1st - this varies according to the old county boundaries, so don't take that as gospel for the whole country.

If you are coming from the south then I'd recommend the old Kilmacolm ->

Greenock road which runs past Loch Thom reservoir. It was metalled, but is now unmaintained (since the late 50s) and has deteriorated. It is still a council adopted road and as such a vehicular right of way howewver it has signs at either end recommending that vehicular traffic not use it. This is on the grounds of damage/grounding for the vehicle, but it is easily passable by anything with more than around 8" ground clearance.

It may be worthwhile contacting the unitary authorities for a list of adopted but unmaintained roads in the area, as these will most likely constitute rights of way and may well be a worthwhile greenlaning exercise.

It's also probably worthwhile contacting the forestry commission as they have a lot of forestry tracks that are worthwhile drives, but it's an open question as to whether they would let you used them.

Aslo worthwhile contacting various country estates in the area (Conaglen, Eracht and Torridon come to mind - if they still exist) and see if they have anything worth driving on - they will probably charge you something for access but it can't hurt to try. It's even an angle to spin "If I give you a fiver will you let me drive down that road that you never use and is nothing but shingle and shale? - there's a couple of hundred of my mates would be willing to do the same"

Also, talk to the locals - they don't bite, but make sure it's a local with a highland accent and not one with a Surrey accent There is a distinct difference in hospitality between them.. They will probably look at you oddly and not understand why you want to drive on unsurfaced tracks, but they are friendly enough and can probably help.

Bear in mind that there are a lot of roads up there which are single tracked and dubiously passable which constitute the only means of access to entire villages - they are the softest of green lanes, but they are definitely rights of way. One that comes to mind is from Ardgour (over the Corran ferry) up through Trislaig to Corpach - it's a single tracked road which depending on how long it's been since it was last siurfaced can be quite nasty to drive on. Just bear in mind that it *is* a main road and to be ready to give way and pull into a passing place if you see oncoming traffic. This may mean you reversing up to 100yds in som occurrances.

Further south, if you go up Loch Lomond side and rather than turning off for Fort William head for Arrochar and keep on going you will eventually (20 miles or so) come to the Rest and be thankful. Turn left there and head for Lochgoilhead. This will take you down Glen Croe which is an *interesting* B road. When you get to Lochgoilhead itself, rather than going around the loch for St Catherines, head up what passes for a main street in the town past the supermarket and post office and keep going. You will run out of surfaced road in around 1/2 mile and onto green lane. I would imagine this is right of way as it's the access route to houses for around 5 miles. An interesting drive nonetheless.

Let us know if any of the above pay off for you.

interruption

There is a similar one much further north that runs between Achgarve and the abandoned village of Slaggan on the coast north of Gairloch. It has a blue sign at its eastern end which reads "Unsuitable for motors except rough terrain vehicles". With care, it could be driven in a Ford Escort. :-))

I tried that - but only with a couple of the authorities. I got the Achgarve>Slaggan route from Alex Sutherland at the Highland Council. He said that it is the *only* one of its type in the Highlands. I'm pretty sure it isn't the only route with an "Unsuitable for motors" sign at the end of it.

I've also done that. They say that there are no forest tracks that they allow the public to drive in motor vehicles. Well, they do have several so-called forest drives that have tolls - so I think their response may be more indicative of their attitude than reality.

If anyone makes any progress with that, please write about it on here. To find out which bit of land belongs to whom, try:

Many of the owners of the large Scottish estates come from a *lot* further afield than Surrey. :-)

I'll second that.

Cheers Andrew Kay

The big problem here is that the Unitary authorities have only been around for around 5 years and don't actually know what they own. If you get lucky you'll find somebody who used to be in the same department with the old regional councils, your chances of finding anybody still working who was with the county/district councils is remote. They were disbanded 30 years ago.

That's fair enough. It may also be worthwhile contacting the National Trust for Scotland - but I doubt it. They own most of the Crown property up north and have ultimate say over what happens to it, but I doubt they will be helpful

I actually meant the local populace, not the landowners. If anybody is going to know where a green lane is it's going to be the local teenagers with the Series motors and quad bikes.

P.

There was a Caravan at the far end when We did it.

Actually that's not true, the old road from Abernethy glen to Auctermuchty is just such an asserted ROW.

The Sluggan pass is also a vehiculat ROW and the glen Douglas road (take the public not the military road) although I drovew that in a volvo so it's not difficult.

Others of more uncertain rights include (Use streetmap to find these)

Craighat to Jamestown. Pubil to Kenknock (actually as metalled road)

Don't know many up in the mallaig area though :-(

There are plenty of short driveable greenlanes in Scotland but they are not marked as ROW on maps and right to drive is questionable, on the other hand if you genuinely dont show you have been doen them and even more so if you don't even have to open gates then who's to know.

Is that the one to the west of Loch Thom, the road to the east is normal single track road, to the west the road via Cornalees is Gated at both ends.

The caravan was only half way along (on the RHS as you head towards Slaggan) when we did it in Aug 2002.

It's shown as yellow on Streetmap - is it tarmac?

That's new to me - thanks.

I drovew that in a volvo so it's not difficult.

Again, that's shown as yellow on Streetmap. Is it not tarmac?

Now that looks an interesting route - must have a look next time I'm in the area (probably next year now). There are several gates shown on streetmap - are they of the kind that come with a padlock? :-)

I drove along that in August this year. It's a private road, owned by Scottish Hydro - but I'm sure it has public vehicular rights. The only reason I didn't mention it, is that it's tarmac for the whole of its length - very scenic though and definitely worth a look anyway.

Oddly, there are "No Through Road" signs on the public roads a few miles towards Killin from Kenknock and also on the road back down Glen Lyon from Pubil. All that really means is that the bits in between are not adopted and not maintained at public expense.

There are some in that category in Galloway Forest Park. For example, if you turn north off the A712 at grid reference NX506725 there is an unsurfaced forest track to Black Loch. It's signposted "Black Loch" on the main road. When you get to Black Loch, you'll see a signpost "Old Edinburgh Road" pointing along a forest track. There is nothing that says you cannot drive it. :-)

I think there are one or two in Abernethy Forest too that might be worth a look (near Aviemore).

Anyone else know any?

Cheers Andrew Kay

Yes, there are a few. I drove a couple of them in 2000 last time I was up in the area.

I'm heading up to Scotland myself shortly for a few days, will probably be doing some green lane driving. Hope the weather holds so I can get some good scenic landscape photography done as well.

Couldn't say east or west. It was mainly being used by the Forestry when I was there. It may have been gated since.

Access to it was from the (I think) B739 which is a right turn about a mile out of Kilmacolm and is signposted Port Glasgow.

P.

Auctermuchty

Nope, definatley not tarmac, forest track, mostly hardcore.

An Sluggan is supposed the best known, even the scotways website mentions it.

It is tarmac but I dont think its and adopted road.and very steep and windy at the west end but tarmac.

All but two are no longer there, middle two are not padlocked.

Oooh, I'll add it to the list

This is signed (paraphrased due to memory)

'Forest Enterprise, in keeping with the open forest policy of froest enterprise this are is open to all for recreational purposes)

Well recreational 4wd seemed to be in that to me.

SE from

W from

Oh - maybe I'd better have another wander around their site. Mmmm ...... I wonder which page it will be on (hint). :-)

Cheers Andrew Kay

"Paul S. Brown" wrote >

I had definitely intended to ask about, especially in whatever turns out to be my local for the week. Its amazing how much interest you can generate just pulling up in a Land Rover and building that interest into a conversation that leads to where can I go to get it stuck is easily done. You have both given me some good tips to look up and highlight onto the maps. I had also plotted some coastal villages that have ferry access only, yet tracks that lead out towards the more inland sections, one in particular that appears to have a track that travels about 20km or so back to an A road. I expect these to be convenience tracks for when the sea is too rough to boat supplies in. Having spent a few years living on Lewis as a child I know about that!

Andrew you mentioned the Glass website and the routes database and I know i ought to stump up and support, which I proberbly will, as I have been itching to see what is listed in there for ages anyways.

Paul thankyou for your route tips, keep them coming, I have checked back through google groups and this thread contains more actual information on scotland than any other I have read so far, including Andrews own thread from a few years ago ;-) and most of it has come from you!

You can tell I knew what I was facing when I gave myself a couple of months to do the research in, at least My landrover this winter wont need tinkering with all the time!

Mark

Some years (15?) ago I drove the old military road from Laggan to Fort Augustus across the Corrieyairack Pass in my old Series IIa. Isn't this still possible?

Nick

It was obstructed in 1996 by the previous owner of the Culachy estate, at its western end near Fort Augustus. A couple of substantial steel posts were set vertically into the road, only a few feet from the gate which opens onto it from the tarmac public road. I don't know what the current owner's position is, but the last time I looked (Aug 2001), the obstructions were still in place.

Neither the Scottish Rights of Way & Access Society (Scotways) nor the Highland Council believe it to be a proven vehicular right of way. Effectively, this means that no one has yet provided sufficient evidence of vehicular usage by the public.

The Highland Council are not willing to take action to remove the obstructions, because they claim that it would support the contention that the route is vehicular - and their RoW officer (who happens to have the same name as a director of Scotways) did not believe that there was sufficient will among the elected members to do that.

Ho hum ...........

Cheers Andrew Kay

If you can't in Scotland, then you should take the camera & drop it down the nearest well. :-)

Cheers Andrew

I have heard that said posts have fallen foul of a winch at least once.

obstructions were

..... and so they should. In England & Wales, users have a right to abate such illegal obstructions. Don't they have a similar right in Scottish law?

Cheers Andrew