OT: Twatting eBay screwing with things again.


It sounds like you've had a shit time with paypal, however there are also plenty of stories in the other direction with paypal not helping with sellers who take payment but never deliver, so it does cut both ways. Personally I'd shy away from selling something with huge delivery costs, when I sold a telly I said "collection only", it does mean there's much less of a market but it also means if some turd turns up and says "no thanks" then you've not lost much. Paypal's "buyer protection" scheme has a dreadful reputation, I tried using it once and there's so many get-outs and caveats that it never got anywhere.
Isn't there a "seller accepts returns" setting? If that's not used, does that not prevent such things or are you double-damned?

Personally I'd have refused to ship and re-listed it.

With power sellers it seems to be an issue as the occasional negative gets lost in the thousands of positives, so the negative feedback system really doesn't work there, this seems to be one of the reasons they're basing the overall seller rating on the last year or so of transactions so a seller can't go crap after a few years of being good.

Many buyers do, which is why this change is being made. While it doesn't matter much, I suspect it's more to do with people getting peeved at retaliatory feedback and the feeling of powerlessness poisoning their confidence in ebay rather than any real effect. On my auctions I don't generally bother to check the feedback rating of buyers for example, but if I got a retaliatory hit I'd be pissed off, even though it's not going to result in me getting bids cancelled by sellers. When buying second-hand goods from complete strangers it's important that the buyer has some confidence even if it's not entirely based in reality.
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I must agree with Ian, my 100% rating is very valuable to me and it means buyers can bid with a degree of confidence. I always read feedback comments if I'm buying something expensive and make my own judgement on whether the comment appears justified or not. Mostly it seems easy to judge if a seller is genuine or not.
I would fear leaving neg feedback to a crap seller as it may mean I would get retaliatory feedback, so in that sense the changes are good.
Matt's experience could have happened from a shop order or a website order but his problem really arose because eBay and PayPal are linked and PayPal froze his account. That issue really needs to be addressed if eBay want professional sellers to keep using their facility. I'm surprised they haven't sorted it as it is damaging eBay's business hugely. Maybe this business of holding money will help.
My experience of eBay has been largely positive, I left neg for one guy who sold me two "working" outboard engines, neither of which actually worked at all. I also filed a non-paying bidder report to a guy I sold a cheap book to. Until that point I had no problems whatsoever and because it was cheap I had actually dispatched the book before payment was received. Good customer service and all that. I reasoned that the guy would have a long time to make the payment as he lived in Oz, before he received the book but he simply didn't pay or communicate. Lesson learned but it was a cheap lesson. I assume my selling fees were refunded and I note the guy is no longer a registered user.
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Does work both ways though Ian, sellers get retaliatory feedback just as much as buyers. A friend of mine deals in lots of 'small' antiques, he's had 8 pointless negs in the past year, and he's one of the most honest blokes I've met. I recall a car dealer I bought an Audi off a couple of years ago, he had loads of negs, with all sort of bollox about dodgy cars, no communication etc. etc, but was an absolutely top bloke (mind you I was immediately biased as he picked me up in his RR!), went well out of his way for me. He was selling part-ex's from his dealership 'privately' from his home - this guy did not need the money (he even gave me 100 off just because he hadn't had chance to clean the car!) and was no way selling dodgy motors, but because of twatty 'buyers' he had a load of negs, why should he not have the opportunity to respond? I did notice that about 6 months after I bought the car that he gave up on eBay - little wonder.
If you don't see it from a sellers point of view, think about it this way, a few silly negs (just 3 in 100) from buyers will drop me out of the buyer protection scheme run by Paypal (which requires over 98% and currently on my account you get a buyer protection of 500) If I am kicked out of that scheme, who does that benefit, buyers? nope, oh yeah, hang on - that's right, Paypal! (aka eBay) All they are doing by making it 'easy' for buyers to leave negatives is reducing their own liability, which is going to harm you by offering less (or even no) buyer protection by increasing the number of sellers with pointless negs. It's total bollox, and nothing to do with making eBay "better" it is about them making more (or should I say loosing less) money. Trust me, this is not a good thing for buyers.
Matt
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Yes but the key point is that sellers can wait for the customer to cough up before they ship, if the buyer gets the upper hand in the feedback stakes, it's a fairly pathetic advantage compared to the seller's ability to take the money and the buyer having to trust them to ship them the goods.

Some things are just not good things to sell in unseen auctions IMHO, cars and antiques being two good examples. Lots of people in here have said that they buy cars on ebay unseen and go out to see the car, and if they don't like it they'll walk away. If I was going to try and sell a car, I wouldn't use ebay for it, I tried it twice and it was a total waste of time. I wouldn't buy one on ebay either for the same reason. Antiques too are one of those things where you can't be sure what you're buying and whether you want it until you see it so it's not really suitable for an online unseen auction. Clearly defined goods are much easier as it's much more clear cut. I have bought one antique on ebay, a clock, that went fine, but it's a dodgy thing for buyers too as well as sellers as there's a good chance that when you see it you just don't want it. Sellers can't expect people to just accept it, IMHO such items just aren't compatible. "Good condition" when it comes to second-hand cars and antiques is extremely subjective, much more so than most items.

Well, I don't think we'll agree on that. I've done a fair few sells on ebay and it's fine for what I use it for, but I certainly wouldn't base a long-term business on one outlet anyhow.
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On or around Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:34:52 +0000, Ian Rawlings

The same applies to any distance-selling or mail order, though. You send money or funds and trust the seller to send you the goods. It's normal practice all over the place and not only on ebay.
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You've obviously been on the end of a poor PP experience as a buyer (as I have a seller!). All I can say is that if you choose to buy from someone who comes under the Paypal protection scheme (indicated within the listing) then it is a very easy process to follow through. I don't know how long ago it was, but you can now claim for several different things, (not received, not as described etc.) and it is up to the seller to disprove your claim.
Paypal will automatically refund the buyer if the seller cannot provide a tracking number for the parcel they sent you. If the seller fails to respond within 7 days, Paypal automatically refunds the buyer etc. etc. If an agreement cannot be reached then each case is personally reviewed by a PP rep. to asses the merits. The dispute process is actually very good, and as an honest seller (& buyer!) I fully support it, it helps my business by giving buyers some confidence in sending their money to a stranger. Unfortunately it is highly abused by many dishonest buyers, or used too hastily before any communication takes place to resolve the issue. If you sold professionally you'd soon become aware of this, and get just as frustrated as me!
Matt
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On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 14:57:09 +0000, Ian Rawlings wrote:

<snip>
And if the first contact is a neg? Your oh so valuable 100% is blown out of the water and you can't respond in a way that shows in a obvious way on their record as you have already left your feedback for them.
I'm with Austin, as a Buyer I leave feedback when the goods have arrived and I'm happy. As a Seller I give feedback when I know (from the buyer leaving suitable feedback) that the buyer is happy with the goods and transaction. If I sell something and don't get feedback niether does that buyer.
Under the new scheme of sellers not being able to give negs or neutrals I won't leave feedback for buyers unless they leave a +ve for me.
Maybe the feedback shouldn't be published for either party until both have approved it?
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They've paid me though, so if they neg me then I can follow-up their neg with a comment, they've given me their cash which is their part of the bargain and the part that really counts, feedback is trivial in comparison. The feedback bit is just a plus. My 100% isn't so valuable that I'm going to try and abuse people in the way others do.

Fine, it's the retaliatory negatives that were the problem.

Either that or the buyer can leave feedback but it can't be seen by the seller or anyone else until the seller has left feedback.
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wrote:

You keep coming back to this apparent need for instant feedback on payment. It's a non-issue, is positive feedback some sort of right, does it make any difference if you get no feedback at all? I really worry about the occasional buyer that is sending emails at the time of payment demanding positive feedback instantly, why is it so important to them, are they setting someone up for a sting once they've built a got rating?
Good buyers or sellers get good feedback from me when I sit down to clear up outstanding feedback this can be once a week if I'm busy. It's got nothing to do with holding anyone to ransom. When payment arrives I tend to post the item as first priority rather than rushing to leave feedback right away, which would you prefer a seller to prioritise posting or a pat on the back for being a good buyer?
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No, but abusing the system is, and too many sellers do that. Not everyone does, but it's a problem big enough to cause this action. They're not doing it for fun, they're making a major change to a system that's been in place for many years, and it's being done due to chronic abuse.
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Matt M wrote:

Trouble is, it's so bloody true!
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