Desperately need help in a god-awful hurry - Anybody?

The car:

1982 Mazda 626 that just turned over 189501 on the odometer. 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine driving a 5 speed stick.

The symptoms: Was driving normally until I stepped down hard on the gas for a pass on the way to town this morning. Chugged, shook, acted "unhappy", power

*WAY* below normal. Nursed it to a parking lot, noticed puffs (not steady stream) of white from exhaust while limping into parking lot. Shut down, checked oil. A bit low (Maybe half to 3/4 quart low) Checked radiator. Seemingly empty, or at least low enough that I can't see water level. (Was fine day before yesterday when I added a small splash of water) No visible leakage anywhere that isn't usual for this old beater. Filled radiator. Ran it (idling rough, but idling) and got foam out of the radiator. Uh-oh... At this point, I'm suspecting head gasket.

Got no time for this - the court tends to ignore excuses like broken cars, and start getting pissy and issuing arrest warrants when you don't show up as scheduled. Refilled radiator, and continued to town with it "acting funny". Several "make sure it has water" stops on the way. Temp gauge went high, but not redline and it gradaully lost almost all power

- Could barely move itself in 1st gear until I got the engine wound WAY up (3500, give or take a bit) Stalled at two stoplights, but restarted after prolonged cranking, but refused to idle. Running horribly rough unless I kept it wound up pretty high (Above 2K) Stalled at third stoplight, and no restart. Pushed off to side of road, abandoned it with a "please don't tow, I'll be back ASAP with a tow truck" note on the dash, and walked the rest of the way to courthouse. Took care of business there, and called AAA for a tow home. Got it here.

Pulled spark plugs - All "dry and normal" except #3, which has always shown a slight oil leak (almost certainly valve guide seals, which I've know it needs for ages, but haven't had the time to do anything about, or spare funds to pay someone to take care of.) No signs of water or oil except on #3, which, for this car, is basically "business as usual".

Compression test was the shocker for me:

Dry: #1: *NO COMPRESSION WHATSOEVER* - doesn't even jiggle the needle. #2: consistently about 25 PSI #3: 125 PSI +/- about 5 PSI between runs #4: 132 PSI +/- about 3 PSI between runs

Add oil and repeat compression test. #1: About 15 PSI (Hard to say for sure - needle moved, but scale doesn't start until 20 PSI #2, #3 and #4: Virtually unchanged - maybe a pound or two higher in each.

Conclusion/sanity check: Problem is blown head gasket, almost certainly between #1 and #2 cylinders, probably involving the block-to-head water passage.

Reasonable? Totally stupid? Otherwise? Should look elsewhere for actual problem?

Need any assistance I can get ASAP, since this car must either be ready to make a 600 mile road trip starting Saturday morning, or be abandoned as junk (I'm preparing to move, and won't be coming back if it gets left behind.)

Reply to
Don Bruder
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Could be. Could be worse than that. You won't know without pulling the head.

Pull the head. Either you'll see gasket issues, or you'll see cracked metal. If the metal looks good, try putting a gasket on, then doing a quick compression test before you bolt everything down and seal it up for good.

Stop wasting time! Pull the head right now.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

With the mileage and age adding to the problem, I'd likely tow or scrap the car. Given more time, I might look around for a used engine if I could do the replacement myself.

whitelist,

"PopperAndShadow"

info

Reply to
Chuck

Not an expert, but given the age, mileage and disastrously bad compression readings I suspect that the "Abandoned as junk" option is probably the most reasonable I'm afraid. Unless you were to rebuild it in weekend spare time I doubt it would be worth the expense / effort.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

If it's just a head gasket like it sounds, then it's likely worth it. If you open it up and see destruction, well...

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: N>
Reply to
Mike Romain

Seems to be the general concensus, though I was praying for "Hey, stupid, you missed *THIS* trivial little thing".

Got about 4 more bolts to get out, and I should be able to lift the head. Trouble is, those four bolts are in absoute *HELL* positions to get to. In for a quick bite to eat, then back to it.

Further information: Once I got the valve cover lifted, found some very minor mayonaise, obviously condensation by the amount and location, but otherwise, everything looks A-OK there.

It's looking more and more like I'm going to find a ruined gasket once I get the head lifted. Hopefully, that's all it is. Looking at the new gasket, I'm now betting on a blowout between #1 and #2, on the driver's side of the block, by way of a water gallery, with a "flap" left between #2 and the water gallery acting as a "one-way valve" for pressure moving from #1 to #2. That would explain #2 having SOME compression (when it compresses, the "flap" closes, letting some pressure build), while #1 has NO compression. That's also the "skinniest" part of the gasket other than where #3 and #4 come closest to touching each other. But since #3 and #4 both show within-specs compression, and if that point were to give, there'd be no water involved, I'm pretty sure that I can rule out that part of the gasket for the break.

I guess we'll find out how accurate my prediction is once I manage to get rid of these last four bolts...

Reply to
Don Bruder

Found a way to get away with pulling only one of the four "hell bolts". It's out, and the head is lifted.

Gasket is indeed fried between #1 and #2, but without the "flap" I predicted - Instead, the destroyed part of the gasket extends from #1 to the water gallery, but there's a piece of "wall" left between the gallery and #2. More than half an inch between the closest parts of #1 and #2 is just plain *GONE*. Looks like firing order is the reason for the "no compression on 1, some compresion on 2" behavior.

No metal damage apparent, although I'm going to have to ladle water out of both #1 and #2, then sponge them out before reassembly. Both are about half full of water as the engine landed.

Now I just hope that the gasket is/was the only actual damage. By the look of it, it may very well be the original gasket installed when the engine was built over in Hiroshima.

#3/#4 aren't gone yet, but it looks like it wouldn't have be much longer before that thin spot gave out if #1 and #2 hadn't gone first.

Panic levels returning to "OK, we can cope". Thanks folks!

Reply to
Don Bruder

Compressed air would probably work the fastest and then just clean the sealing surface. If I were you, I'd take the head down to a local machine shop and have it checked for any warping/leaking valves. Just bolting it back on will work...but if it is warped it will be a short-lived repair job.

Chris

Reply to
halatos

Old age likely got that gasket. 4 banger mazda heads don't warp easy.

Mike

Reply to
Mike Romain

Aye that, on both counts. From what I'm seeing using straightedge and feelers per the factory manual, I've got either no warp at all, or so little that it won't mean diddly-squat once I slop some good ol' copper permatex on it and drop the fresh gasket in place.

Old age definitely *APPEARS* to be the cause of death on this one - I think I said in the other message that it looks as though this may be the factory-original gasket.

And then there's the fact that this fix only *HAS TO* last about 600 miles - Once I'm in the new location, and have all the time I care to take, rather than being in the panic mode "IT'S GOTTA BE MOBILE SATURDAY MORNING!" situation I'm looking at right now, I can redo it at leisure if it seems neccesary.

With a much as I've got invested in this ol' beater in terms of time and TLC, and as good as it's treated me over the years I've had it, I'm not much interested in just hauling it to the boneyard... It's ugly as a bucket fulla monkey assholes, but up until now, it's been "get in, turn the key, and go where you want to go - First time, every time", and I've gotten kind of attached to the ol' beater :)

Reply to
Don Bruder

I'd turn the engine over and check the deck height of those two pistons just to be sure that water didn't bend a rod. Sop out the water then pour some alcohol in there to dilute any left over water and then blow dry the bores. Toss a straight head on the block and head just to be sure as well.

Reply to
Steve W.

Don Bruder wrote: : Virtually unchanged - maybe a pound or two higher in each.

I think that's pretty conclusive.

Reply to
Steve

If you have a reliable straightedge, you can eyeball it for serious warping... an optical flat would be a lot more accurate but the straightedge is better than nothing in a pinch.

If the valves are bad, it won't pass a compression test once you have it back together. So yes, you waste a good bit of working time by not taking the head to a shop, but you save a lot of waiting time.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Don, Hope you get it, let us know, we hate to see a mazda bite the dust ;-)

Chris

99BBB
Reply to
Chris D'Agnolo

Got the head pulled late in the afternoon day before yesterday (not too awful long after the initial "HELP!" post) and found, as expected after a compression test showing *ZERO* compression in #1, about 25 pounds in #2, and normal 135-ish in #3 and #4, a scragged head gasket - gone between #1 and #2, and blowing into a water gallery.

As of about 15 minutes ago, I've got it put back together far enough to be able to run a compression test - It's not runnable yet - Still got valve cover and intake manifold to bolt back on, need to re-hang all of the belt-driven stuff and reinstall the radiator (had to come in through the front to reset the timing chain tensioner, which required pulling practically everything off the front of the engine to get to the access hatch so I could do that), and untangle and reconnect a rat's nest of vacuum lines, as well as resetting ignition timing before I can even consider an actual attempt to run it.

The results? All four cylinders showing above 135 but below 145 PSI after three "pulses" on the compression gauge needle, with only "about" (dial on compression gauge only resolves to 5 pound increments) 5 pounds difference between highest and lowest. Factory manual specs say anything from 120 to 170 is acceptable, as long as everybody's within 7 PSI of everybody else. So I'm calling that good, and pronouncing the head gasket cured.

Another hour or two, maybe less, should have me ready to fire this beast up for timing and test run. Wish me luck!

Reply to
Don Bruder

Cool, good luck!

Mike

86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail >
Reply to
Mike Romain

Good luck! Hopefully your next post will begin "it's ALIIIIIIIIVE!"

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Well, at least mostly alive...

It's running - There's no denying that.

Trouble is, besides "pistons going up and down turning gasoline into exhaust and making crankshaft go 'round and 'round" style running, it's also running water - a steady trickle, maybe an eigth of an inch "thick". And I'm damned if I can spot the source! Wherever it is, it's somewhere on the front of the block - At first, it appeared to be coming off of the harmonic balancer shaft, which makes very little, if any, sense - There shouldn't be anyplace there for water to come from! Putting it up on stands and crawling underneath with it running changed the "where it falls off the engine" location to just below the "hatch" to the timing chain tension adjuster (which is just above the harmonic balancer - Moved the "drip point" up about 6 inches, basically). THAT makes no sense - There's noplace for water to come from there - OIL? Sure - Oil *COULD* come from there *VERY* easily if it wasn't properly gasketed and permatexed. (it was/is) But not water.

Which pretty much narrows it down to the water pump, I guess - there's noplace else on the front of the engine that *CAN* leak water - The timing cover, with chain beneath it, is the only thing there, and *WAS NOT* removed from the block yesterday while I was tearing the stuff off the front of the engine. It has one water passage - a pass-through from the water pump to the block, and the front of the timing cover makes up the back of the water pump.

The water pump had to be removed to allow access to the timing chain adjuster hatch, but it was put back on with a new gasket, doped heavily with permatex blue on both sides, and *VERY* carefully tightened and inspected, showing a plainly visible bead of permatex mooshed out of the seam all the way around.

I wonder if the water pump seal/bearing is leaking? But I can see no sign of water there, either.

Can't see the bottom half of the water pump now that everything is back together - stuff in the way, including the lower radiator hose, and harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley. All hose clamps are tight by feel, but two of the ends are impossible to see now that things are back together - it COULD be one of those two hoses leaking, I guess...

Only other thing that's worrying me is what looks to be a small amount of oil in the cooling system now, but I can't rule out the concept that oil spilled from the oil galleries into the water jacket when the head was lifted. Gonna do a multiple drain and refill to try to rule out and/or clean up that possibility. Crankcase is water-free, as far as I'm able to tell from looking at the dipstick, and the amount of oil in the cooling system seems to be quite small - just a "skin" on top when I look into the radiator after shutting it down and letting things settle for a minute or two. No pressure, suction, or foaming at the radiator when it's running, so clearly no compression getting into the system. (unlike the other day when the gasket let go, and there was *ALL KINDS* of pressure and foam happening)

Aside from that, it *IS* running, and miraculously, I managed to get the timing to within about 2 degrees before ever hooking up the timing light. I expected it to be *COMPLETELY* out of time, since I rolled the crank (both directions) several times while dinking with getting the harmonic balancer bolt broke loose, then torqued back down yesterday, and fumbled the distributor twice, both times visibly moving the gear on the "recovery".

Timing chain was, *OF COURSE* wired (OK, actually zip-tied, but close enough, right?) to the camshaft sprocket before the sprocket was pulled off the camshaft, and there's not enough room on the crankshaft end to jump a tooth in either direction (due to multiple "chain guide/keeper" flanges around the crankshaft sprocket - I know from tearing down the other, identical, engine to prepare for a full rebuild that unless the sprocket is removed from the crankshaft, it's impossible for the chain to move far enough off its seats on the sprocket to skip a tooth) but it still seems like a miracle that I was able to stab the distributor so close to perfect after moving both the gear on the camshaft *AND* the distributor while they were unmeshed!

This thing *HAS* to roll out on a roughly 600-700 mile journey tomorrow morning, so any advice on finding/killing the water leak is more than welcome, especially if it comes *FAST*.

Reply to
Don Bruder

Replace the water pump. if the head gasket was as badly blown as it sounds, you may very well have blown the seals out of the WP before you parked it. At least that's my best guess; the other ideas that come to mind are much less appealing. (but since you don't say that it's running badly, I seriously doubt that there's been any kind of incident that could ventilate a block.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I *DID* replace the water pump on "Well, this one was attached when things went south, and I've got the other one..." principles, although the swap was with the one from the other engine, and that one could be bad. Come daylight, I'll swap back to the old one (which showed no sign of leakage, even after the gasket got so bad I couldn't get it to restart.

Roughly an inch of gasket between #1 and #2 was gone, intersecting a nearby head-to-block water passage. It's running *A LITTLE* rough at idle, but not particularly noticable unless you're as familiar with this particular car and its habits as I am - Most people probably wouldn't even notice, but since I'm so "tuned into" it from putting so many miles on it... Likely nothing more than "getting used to" the new gasket. (Boy, did it ever smoke when I first fired it up, too! But hardly surprising, what with all the oil that was running around loose immediately after lifting the head)

Agreed - No sign of block failure was visible when I had it opened up. (and believe me, I looked *VERY* carefully for any sign of cracking. Absolutely *NOTHING* visible to indicate such failure)

Side note: antifreeze is apparently an *EXCELLENT* cylinder-bore cleaner... #1 and #2 looked like they had never even been run, let alone grown any carbon or crud buildup, while #3 and #4 both had what ws obviously years of of buildup on the piston crowns, valves, and the underside of the head. (Said buildup was indeed removed as well as possible before re-assembly on the "Since I'm already in here, might as well..." theory)

Other than the small amount of oil in the radiator, which did have me sweating for a bit, there's no other sign that there's any block damage. After a triple drain/refill/run/drain/refill/run cycle, the water in the radiaotr is now running clear, with only a slight trace of "rainbow" when I look into the radiator cap. (Earlier it was pretty obvious that there was a goodly amount of oil in the water - I'm betting on spillage into the water jacket while the head was off)

Reply to
Don Bruder

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