An awesome Saxo...

Keep reading Mr De Moor. The final prices were:

"Kit:£5500

Car: £1100

Engine and Trans: £2800

ECU: £1200

Wheels n Tyres: £350

And it's an absolute laugh to drive. "

I make that about £11k for everything you need. And by the looks of it it wouldn't be that hard to do, theres no nasty oily bits to contend with, just a matter or bolting everything in place. Even the ECU/loom only needs a 12v feed and an earth.

Check out:

I'd love one, and I'd keep the standard wheels to make it look as stock as possible. However I'm a tight bastard, and if I really wanted something with that sort of performance I'd get a mk1.5 MR2 for half that price!

yeah true. I didn't read all the pages, just the first few where he seemed to lose most the floor pan and then start putting tubes in.

I thought K-tec did french cars. Doesn't this one have a honda lump? for that you want a Jackson kit.

Of course you have, I should have know. Seems every time I mention a price somebody knows "a place" where it is a fraction of the money.

There is just this little thing: my job consist of 50% of making prices and I am flooded with work.

It is possible that you paid 70 UKP for a purpose made tank... (the price of a fuel swirl pot). Most likely your tank is a rectangular one, no baffling, no ventilation pipe, and a straight pipe where the filler cap should be, welded by a mate on his job using the aluminium nicked from his boss then it might be possible that you had to paid 70 UKP.

Greets,

Tom De Moor

???

You never have done it. It is after you made somme cars on the level of that Saxo Zcar that you will appreciate "just a matter of bolting everything in place" because it won't.

Carl, I have done such things for a living and no: the company did not went bust. Read my lips: 11 kUKP is impossible, in Belgium as in the UK.

There is at least 50% missing: labor, profit.

Sorry again: the Zcar Saxo is not comparable to any of the MR2's and for half it's price -being 5500 UKP- you won't have anything near that kind of performance which will be but remotely relyable. Oh yes: you could find an old Saphire Cosworth but for that money it will be a wreck needing a lot of new bits just to keep it rolling.

The remarks of "cheap" remind me of man who ported a few heads for us. While I was there, a chap came in, asked for the price for the porting of a 16V-head and after recieving it (1400 UKP) promptly started swearing and insulting.

Finally Mike got angry too, set his cat on the ground, put down a new price(

200 UKP). When the bloke asked when he could bring the head, Mike answered:" With those 200 UKP you buy the cutters and polishing bits. You are a big boy and the work you can do yourself. Oh yes: those bits are sold in the shop at the end of the street. Bye."

Tom De Moor

That may be true... Jackson sounds familiar too :-)

Err, you don't seem to have taken it in the spirit intended, sorry 'bout that.

I was trying to point out that my car is cheap, and I got a bargain, not that your tank is overpriced ;)

I had a bit of a bump in it a couple of weeks ago, bloke that hit me fecked off and the car turned out to have no insurance etc. My insurance is 3rd party only so I've had to fix it (and pay for the bits) myself.

Pair of rear wings SS wing stone guards

1/2 shaft 2x tyres 1 alloy wheel pair of upper suspension wishbones 2x suspension brackets 2 chassis tubes replacing

I've got all the bits, I paid £230 for 'em, it's not called a locost for nowt.

BTW, you're right about the tank, I always thought it was baffled, but I just got around to fitting a fuel sender at the weekend and it's not baffled at all. But what do you expect for £70 ;)

PS The car that hit me was coming in the opposite direction and just turned right across my path, dodgy as f*ck, my shoulder contacted with the bumper and was a bit sore, but I've never been in a car crash that I've actually felt lucky about. I'm usually pissed off about the damage, but this time I thought I was gonna get hurt....

Maybe not, but compared to some conversions it doesn't look that difficult.

Errrrm, it's being advertised on their website at that price!

Yes, it doesnt include labour, but I would have wanted to do it myself as I'm lucky enough to have access to a decently kitted out workshop.

Errrm, I think you need to check your facts first Tom. Bolting a 2.0 Turbo into an mk1 MR2 is common practice - even a standard engine is perfectly reliable and comes with 220bhp+. 300bhp is pretty easily acheivable. The chassis can more than cope with the power. And you can pick them up for well under £5k. For example:

£3k for car, £1k to do the arches and general tidying and voila.

Ah... you know a decent kitted out workshop is for free these days, labor too I suppose, quality tools are chips cheap these days. No: you won't need a engine crane for a 1 time job, would you. SOme help from pals and it will go in on its own device.

And of course because you do it yourself, it always works out great from teh first time: no shorted engine wiring, no things who get messed up etc.

In fact you won't find any "project car" half finished because the owner hadn't the skills, "needed to move house", because his work began to take too much of his time or because his GF/wife started divorce. There are no kit car for sale for 1000 UKP where the owner has "invested" 10 times that amount.

I am considering and calculating the building of a "fast build kit" of a composite aircraft. Within 800 hours an airplane which can cruise at 200 MPH will be there costing a trird of a factory build one... Sure: and then I take into account the time in will spend in the workshop, the sheer volume of work, the certifcation and stuff and formost: the money the company aks to provide me with the same airplane ready for take off. A little voice in the back of my head says if the fast build kit was so easy and allowing you to lower the bill so much, why does the factory bothers to make planes themselves?

We both know the answer.

A simple comparison as how costs evolve.

Bloke 1 does the servicing on his car himself: drains the oil, puts on a new filter, fill the car up with 5 liters of quality oil. Cost? 5 UKP for the filter, 8 UKP for the oil. So : 13 UKP in all

Bloke 2 goes with his car to a dealer for the same thing. Work: 25 UKP, filter = 10 UKP, Oil= 32 UKP , the little copper ring = 1 UKPm disposal of the used oil = 1 UKP. So : 69 UKP in all

You might think the dealer gets rich (some do, but not on oil servicing). But some of the blokes type 1 have an oil dripping car, some of them are caught dumping their used oil in a drain or something. I had even one who filled his radiator by filling it through the oil cap...

No, I don't: you compare two different things. First you forget the weight: the Saxo will put about 800 kg on the scale, the MR2 1000kg.

Seconcdly the Saxo convertion and the work done on it, means it becomes a new car with much more things do to it than said. Sorry for the fondness for the MR MK1 but the seller warns allready for what you are going to find.

Third: I am used -and imposed- to work with budgets as well as real-estate, mechanical construction and yes : there is still a racing team. We won championships on the budget of works engine, our budget being the lowest of the paddock. I know how to cut corners and will not hesitate if those corners are felt as being not important. But I hate going over budget or finding myself out out money halfway through.

The above is just a warning: do not be carried away by the "cheap" prices, they are cheap for a reason and once you take it, you are stuck with it for better or worse. Think and dream about it as much of you like, but do not fool yourself because then your project will bite.

Tom De Moor

Hehehe UK in expensive, but not that expensive heh. National in type do a in and out oil change for £21 or something.

Yes I do know of a decently kitted out workshop that is free, and after 5 years of fiddling with cars, I already have my own decentish tools, jacks, stands and engine crane. And my own labour is free.

Personally I wouldnt take the Saxo to Citroen and ask them to turn it into a mid engine nutter car, in fact I wouldnt take it to any garage, as I've said I'd do it myself. Your opinion of everyone else is irrelevant, I couldnt care less what Bloke 2 is doing!

As I've said, I've access to the space and equipment to do it myself. I'm not pretending to be a mechanical expert, but all the one-off engineering bits are made for you, all you have to do is bolt it in to a prepared car. I really cant see it being as hard as you make out.

There's no need to get on your high horse. I didnt say the MR2 was better than the Saxo, or was gonna be quicker etc etc, I said *I* would take the MR2 over the Saxo because it was half the price with the same sort of performance.

Tom, you really need to check up on things before you go off spouting nonsense about them. We just sold our MR2 mk1 for £1k, this was a very tidy car. For another £1k you could have a crash damaged mk2 Turbo. For another £1.5k Paul Woods (UK MR2 mk1.5 expert) would install the turbo engine in the mk1. Lets say another £2k on new brakes, suspension, clutch and engine bits/tuning. Without fiddling you'll have 225bhp from an early engine, by raising the boost a bit you'll have a reliable 270bhp. So that's £5.5k for an MR2 mk1.5 with new brakes, new suspension, new clutch and plenty of power and half the price of the Saxo kit. And these figures come from a man who does these conversions for a living, so please dont question them.

Tom's just jealous that he's not allowed to do that sort of thing where he is :-)

cheers, clive

In news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net, Carl Gibbs wittered on forthwith;

I've got a decently kitted out workshop and my labour is free if I'm working on my own stuff in my own time. I suppose I should charge myself labour costs. How much should I charge me?

Um, as someone else has said National / ATS / Kwik Fit will all do oil and filter changes for less than £20. Changing the oil on the 911 only cost £40 at one of those places, and that takes a huge amount of oil.

Um, no it won't. You can buy a good, well maintained Sapphire Cosworth easily for £5000UKP. One of my associates has 3 RS500 Cosworths - he's never paid more than £7500 for one.

I don't think Tom is as clueless as some of the "experts" in 'ere, and there are things he knows lots about. However, engine transplants don't seem to be one of them.

. o 0 (fuxake, I'm sounding like Ken)

Last reply in this thread because it is starting to degrade into "Mine is bigger than yours." Please note that I have nothing against Z-cars Saxo's nor modded MR's, I post out of experience, gained a paid (test)driver and professional in the business.

Your last remark, quoted above, makes me smile... because the source of the numbers is indeed non-suspect and utterly objectif.

The only figures I do not contest are data from a not-connected source and my own datalogger. This little piece of kit plugs into the cigarette lighter and uses GPS for speeds and acceleration, no other wiring is needed. It quite often tells another story than the man "making his living" on such or such.

Take it for what is it worth: as soon as something is not questionnable, start asking questions or run like hell. It will save you a lot of money.

Regards,

Tom De Moor

Depends if you have to invoice yourself and put it through the books, or quietly pay yourself cash in hand.

That's fair enough, you're clearly a smart guy when it comes to cars and have a very enviable automotive history, but from what I can gather you dont seem to have any direct experience with what we've been talking about and just seem to be guessing and getting stuff wrong.

Well there's seems to be plenty of people that can testify for him. I've never seen one complaint about him or the results he gets from customer cars. He's a well respected man and I'd trust his figures completely.

Demon Tweeks, who aren't known for selling anything cheaply will sell you an alloy fuel tank with build in swirl pot for £150+VAT.

Do you have a plasma cutter and a mig? Because you'd need one to do that saxo properly.

Fraser

Or starting with a motor that actually produces torque.

Fraser