Re: Old car, new engine. Spanking...

The URL wraps.

Does sound quite nice and quite quick on the road though

2.4L 90 degree V8.

AFAIR only 3.0 V10s have to have a rev limiter, and they can only be used if the team can prove they don't have a V8 available.

That's what I was thinking - it's very close to diesel territory. Makes you wonder what kind of glow plugs he's running.

17/1 is not possible. Compression over 13/1 and such RPM impose a very big overlap on the camshafts, resulting in a very narrow powerband high up. No way that such an engine, the more on TB's, idles lower than 5000 RMP.

His dynochart, bumpy beyond dreams, gives a wide powerband. 412 Hp is not possible for that kind of engine. Greek dyno suffers severly from heat and goodwill. If not: that Greek is now employed by either Cosworth, Ilmor or the motorbike race departement where he nicked the fuel from (but then he would not be Greek but Japanese).

Look at the rad: standard MK2 Escort item, impossible that even on short runs that dissipates 1000-1200 HP in heat. 1200 Hp heat at low speed on such a radiator (a rallye-car lives below 100 mph) is called a grenade.

Moneywise now: 4 pistons (3000 UKP), new rods (those are not Carillo's nor titanium, 1000 UKP), billet crankshaft (7000 UKP), specific camshafts (1000 UK), headwork and valves (3000 UKP), ecu (2000 UKP). Getting everything first time right won't be a problem for our Greek, but still it stays an engine worth a lot of cash with an estimated lifetime of 40 hours... and that fits as a glove in a oldtimer-rallye car worth 2 kUPD? Of course, Sir, they all do that around there, the trofee is worth that kind of money (every racer has his caves filled with those)

BTCC 2l (like the Williams Laguna's, TWR Volvo's) on TB's were at 300 HP with serious budgets. Now a Greek with no budget (see the rest of the car) will surpass specialised manufacturers on that scale? Yeah, in your wildest Greek dreams.

With all respect to the NA Cosworth's: most struggle to break the 300 Hp-barrier. Realistic view about the engine and if the top-RPM is correct: 280-300 HP at the crank and below 7000 RPM nada (okay: 50 Hp)

Tom De Moor

It is - ask many drag bike owners, They use 24v off board starters to fire them up too.

Compression over 13/1 and such RPM impose a very

Big compression alone helps pumping efficiency. Large overlap as you sugest need not be as large as you think. And while the idle may be rather lumpy and uneven it wouldnt be anyhing like

5k. 2.5 maybe.

The "bumpy" whilst real data comes from a combination of things. The main one being that the car was bouncing and rocking slightly during the run. Many cars do this on the odd dyno run. The next run would have given a smooth curve most likely and been more accurate. But this one is higher in the peaks so he kept t!

The other thing that causes peaks and troughs is tunede length air boxes, exhausts etc. They help at some rpms and harmonics of them and hinder in the opposite places.

gives a wide powerband. 412 Hp is

Its severely difficult to believe!!! a third of it undoubtedly is in the peaks on the graph caused by the possible rocking on the chassis dyno.

Greek dyno suffers severly from

that sentence made no sense.

Stock smooth running quiet civilised production bikes are doing 170bhp per litre remember. And 147 rear wheel... Thats 300 from 2 litres prodution and emmision controlled.AT THE WHEEL.

Now a Greek with no budget (see the rest of the

aGREED.

yep, with bigger bores than the 1 litre bike engines 150 bhp per litre is about the best they can be expected to do.

Realistic view about the engine and if the top-RPM is

I dont believe it does those revs. I suspect "calculated or grabbed" rpm on the dyno and no proper electrical hookup.

Just out of interest, why do the govening body regulate the design of the engine - I understand the max. displacement, but why would they limit it to 90 degrees?

It may be a weight distribution thing. In the past some F1 "V" geometries have been close to flat. This obviously gets the weight lower down than is possible in a 90 degree layout and improves handling.

Ah. The V10s have all gone now haven't they? I thought for the new 'engine sealed for the next two years' rule or whatever it is to stop development, they all had to be limited? I may be talking c*ck though.

Why would they want to stop development?

Dunno, I think the rule I quoted is current - that a team may use a V10 but it has to be rev limited and the team has to prove that it had no V8 alternative available. No such limit applies to the V8.

It's all a bit sad in many ways. In my day F1 engines had got up to

750bhp/litre. I don't think we'll see those days back again.

Cost I think. I'm sure that's a new reg.

Didn't they used to run 1.5l Turbo motors that were reputed to make 1500bhp in qualy trim?

Yep. In the days when F1 was fun to watch.

Yes, but run at around 1200bhp ish in race trim. On the grounds that drivers get a bit upset if the engine passes them faster than they were going a few seconds earlier.

Sorry but that is provable wrong: the extra compression raises the theoretical efficiency but it contributes but marinal to extra power.

The formula is n = 1- 1 /(L^(k-1))

L= compression ratio k is a ration which defines if the burning goes on under constant pressure (=piston moving down) compared to burning under constant volume (piston in TDP)

IRL k equals around 1.4.

The *theoretical* efficiency for L = 10 is 60% , for L =17 it is 67.8%

So if you take an engine and you change nothing but the compression and supposing that the mixture doesn't detonate unwanted, the gain is power would be 13% ( 67,8 /60)

Petrol engines are not build for the extra stresses that the compression raise that high introduces, diesels are. NA-engines can not "intercool" or liquidate the heat interduced by the compression.

IRL our Greek will get close to nothing on raising the compression ratio that high because ignition will have to be retarded too. He has a nice engine which in the escort Mk2 will be a blast to drive but it hasn't

400 Hp not by a long way.

Hp-figures sell, just like topspeed-figures and "race"-parts anodised in fancy colors but weaker then OEM-parts. How often have we passed a competitor who claimed he was above 200 kph when our datalogging showed

170 kph... Most of the time they went on complaining that our engine was modified beyond the rules "cause he was over 200 kph"...

Tom De Moor

Tom De Moor

Does that gobbledegook also allow for the more dense charge due to increase in volumetric efficiency as well? And the gain by ignition process later in the cycle? Because half the gain comes from this.

Then 13 percent extra (I see much more in practice for whatever reason) when you would have had around 300 anyway is a marked 40 hp extra! And from experience compression hikes of that amount show greater than 13 percent!

Then why do the hotted up bikes and cars - some with daft compression ratios go so damned fast and read stagering numbers on my dyno afterwards? EG my mates olde 2 valve kawasaki has both a big valve and big bore and about 16 to 1 compression and its seriously FAST and a road bike.

NA-engines can not

They seem to manage exactly that extremely well! I have added a couple of

140 bhp nitrous systems to various very high compression bike engines without any problems at all. Just big power.

No I agree. And explained why, and also explaind how he could get the shaky power curve that says he has. And its easy to repeat. But it IS possible to get close to that say 330 or 40 though. Although I dont believe the revs since the piston speed at a quess would be out of the

57 to 60 fps range which is pushing it a lot.

Are there any teams still using the V10, I think they're all on V8's now? The V8 is limited to 19000rpm to try and keep costs down.

None of them run a V10 anymore IIRC, and I thought that rule you just quoted about the limited V8s was the case.