Are enviro-nuts EVER satisfied??

There are a couple of serious flaws in your analysis.

The first problem is that even if you assume the vehicle can make it 300 miles on a charge when new (which is not possible as of today), it will not be able to deliver that range over its entire service life. As the number of cycles pile up, its effective capacity is going to erode and you will not get anywhere near 300 miles when the battery is going end of life.

Second, the number of cycles that you will get out of the battery is tied to the average depth of discharge that it is subjected to. In your example you quote 1000 cycles. You may only get 1000 cycles if you are averaging a 50% depth of discharge per cycle.

Third, the extreme temperatures that most vehicles are subjected to will significantly impact battery performance and you will rarely attain that

300 mile per charge mark even when new. Extreme temperatures will also seriously shorten its effective life. Look at the lead acid battery in your car today. In most cases you are lucky to get 5 years out of it, and it's usage duty cycle is extremely small.

These factors significantly alter your 300,000 mile theory. Of course the specific battery chemistry used is going to alter the equation, but I believe that 50k miles is a more realistic number with a pure electric vehicle using todays battery technology.

On the subject of gasoline engines, it really depends on how they are driven. 300,000 in town short trip miles would be pretty tough. I know plenty of people that put on 25-50k a year on the freeway, and they have no trouble putting on 200k+ without any major issues. In my original quote, I was assuming a 50k life from vehicle batteries, and a 250k service life from the gasoline engine to get the 5x number.

Of course we don't have any good data to go from as there are no mass produced purely electric vehicles in use by the public at this time, but in my earlier life I spent years designing numerous types of charging systems for lead acid, ni-cd, ni-mh, and lithium ion battery types so I became intimately familiar with all of their differing characteristics.

(*>

Only a couple? I'm getting better. ;)

You're assuming these batteries use current technology. I imagine they will be lithium or maybe something better. As I stated, the batteries that I believe will be in a viable electric car does not exist today.

I expect mileage to vary based on driving conditions just like it does today for internal combustion engines. It may take more time before battery technology allows electric snowcats but for the overwhelming majority of us it won't be a problem 99.9% of the time. Actually lithium batteries we can buy today are fairly cold resistant.

Depending on replacement costs 50k miles on a set may be quite feasible.

It is rare for most cars to see 300,000 miles. I don't see why an electric car can't be just as durable as a gasoline powered car. In some ways they may be more durable since there will likely be far fewer moving parts. Also, electric motors can last a very long time if designed and built properly using today's technology.

I'm far from an expert on any of this. It just seems to me that electric cars solve too many problems to not be the ultimate successor to the gasoline powered car. It also makes sense to me because society is gravitating toward most things consuming electrical power and alternative energy sources like geothermal, wind, tides, photoelectric cells, nuclear etc. result in the production of electricity. Electronics, most household items etc. require it to function. It would unify the power distribution system and greatly reduce the need for our current huge oil infrastructure. It centralizes power generation so these facilities can be run cleaner and take advantage of new technologies to everyones benefit. It will require huge improvements in the power generation and delivery systems but then in 1900 would anyone have thought there would be a quadrillion gas stations spread around the globe? I expect if this happens it will be a decades long process unless some unforeseen factor kicks in to accelerate it.

Ahhh, now the ultimate might be some way of harnessing gravity (attract/repel something like maglev), or tapping into the aurora borealis...

Actually, cars which operate on the same general principle as the electric trolley using some kind of ground installed cable or track, with computer controls coupled to GPS... plug in the co-ordinates for the local grocery and the car takes you there by the quickest/safest means. Get onto an interstate and the car picks up on a power grid and goes to where you program it, with any stops along the way. Make them toll routes to pay for the power used and system upkeep.

Personally, I don't think we'll be around to need such systems. Some catastrophe will come along to greatly reduce the need.

I would rather breath smog as thick as gravy before living with this. ;)

Everyone is too concerned with global warming to worry about any massive asteroids streaking towards us. ;)

I wasn't considering asteroids, comets, etc. I'm thinking disease, war (which I consider to be a natural phenomenon of sorts), natural catastrophes (major tsunamis on the NW US Coast and the Eastern Seaboard caused by tectonic uplifts),more major volcanic activity, reversal of the magnetic poles (which is approximately 10% already in the southern Atlantic regions if the present models are correct). Earth protects itself from time to time. It's not a gloom and doom prediction, it's just the way it is in the natural order of things.

I was just telling someone the other day that we all may look back and say "Remember when all we had to worry about was thermonuclear war?" when some wacked-out terrorist or environmentalist genetically engineers a super bug or virus that wipes out 99% of mankind.

I don't see Mother Nature as protecting herself as much as her saying to all life on earth just before every mass extinction "Who's tough enough to make it to the next level?" I don't think humans will fair as well as cockroaches during the next one.

Sea critters had their day. reptiles had their day, mammals are having their day. Virii and microbes have always had their day. What's left? Bugs. Consider how close sci fi writers have always been. Now consider all those hokey scifi movies about ants and roaches and bees, and.... : 0 )

From:

RFK: One of the worst examples is the rewriting of New Source Review. I have three sons with asthma; one out of every four black kids in New York City now has asthma. Asthma attacks are triggered primarily by ozone and particulates, and the major sources of those materials in our atmosphere are 1,100 coal-burning power plants that are burning coal illegally. The Clinton administration had initiated investigations and prosecutions against 70 of the worst of those. But this is an industry that donated $48 million to President Bush and the Republican Party in the 2000 cycle and has given $58 million since. One of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department to drop those lawsuits. The Justice Department lawyer said that this had never happened before in American history, where a president accepts money from industries targeted for investigation and prosecution, and then orders the Justice Department to drop those investigations once he gets into office. There were 70 utilities involved here and, according to EPA, just the criminal exceedences from those 70 plants killed 5,500 Americans every year. Then the administration went and rewrote the Clean Air Act, gutting the New Source rule, which means those plants will be able to discharge ozone and particulates forever.

Independent Library Of Congress Study Confirms That Bush Mercury Rules Let Industry Off The Hook

(FRIDAY, April 22) -- A new Congressional Research Service (Library of Congress) report requested by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) confirms that most power plants will have to do nothing to reduce toxic mercury pollution from power plants for at least ten years under the Bush Administration's new mercury rules.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a set of two rules on March 15. The first rule reversed a 2000 EPA decision that it is "necessary" and "appropriate" to regulate mercury from coal-fired power plants. The second rule established a "cap and trade" system under which utilities can either control mercury pollution or buy allowances from other plants. The new independent report released by Leahy validates many of the concerns about the Bush Administration?s mercury rule that were raised by states, public health officials and sportsmen at a Democratic Policy Committee hearing chaired by Senator Leahy on April 19 on Capitol Hill.

?This adds to the mountain of evidence that confirms the Bush Administration?s mercury rule is fatally flawed and steeped with favoritism to the big polluters,? said Leahy.

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.

I suppose you have solid evidence of all this, and it's not just what you heard via anti-Bush/Republican media. And if you don't personally have such evidence, then you should not be the one airing it. Leave it to those who claim they do.

Even if true, it's not as if people like the Clintons have not had their fair share of getting away with doing bad things. All this back stabbing revenge stuff is so over used that a major share of the public doesn't trust either side for the truth. It's all rhetoric, and those who spread it are like children on a playground calling each other names.

Did somebody fart or is Hanky back?

If you would learn to read and think for yourself, you wouldn't be totally dependent on government propaganda for your "information", and you wouldn't have to guess what's true and what isn't - you'd know.

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.

Why do you encourage corporate polluters to shit in your bed, Mikey? Enjoy the warmth and stench?

From:

RFK: One of the worst examples is the rewriting of New Source Review. I have three sons with asthma; one out of every four black kids in New York City now has asthma. Asthma attacks are triggered primarily by ozone and particulates, and the major sources of those materials in our atmosphere are 1,100 coal-burning power plants that are burning coal illegally. The Clinton administration had initiated investigations and prosecutions against 70 of the worst of those. But this is an industry that donated $48 million to President Bush and the Republican Party in the 2000 cycle and has given $58 million since. One of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department to drop those lawsuits. The Justice Department lawyer said that this had never happened before in American history, where a president accepts money from industries targeted for investigation and prosecution, and then orders the Justice Department to drop those investigations once he gets into office. There were 70 utilities involved here and, according to EPA, just the criminal exceedences from those 70 plants killed 5,500 Americans every year. Then the administration went and rewrote the Clean Air Act, gutting the New Source rule, which means those plants will be able to discharge ozone and particulates forever.

Independent Library Of Congress Study Confirms That Bush Mercury Rules Let Industry Off The Hook

(FRIDAY, April 22) -- A new Congressional Research Service (Library of Congress) report requested by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) confirms that most power plants will have to do nothing to reduce toxic mercury pollution from power plants for at least ten years under the Bush Administration's new mercury rules.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a set of two rules on March 15. The first rule reversed a 2000 EPA decision that it is "necessary" and "appropriate" to regulate mercury from coal-fired power plants. The second rule established a "cap and trade" system under which utilities can either control mercury pollution or buy allowances from other plants. The new independent report released by Leahy validates many of the concerns about the Bush Administration?s mercury rule that were raised by states, public health officials and sportsmen at a Democratic Policy Committee hearing chaired by Senator Leahy on April 19 on Capitol Hill.

?This adds to the mountain of evidence that confirms the Bush Administration?s mercury rule is fatally flawed and steeped with favoritism to the big polluters,? said Leahy.

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.

Especially activists who defend The United States of America and the Freedoms and Rights of Her Citizens. One thing most of you radical right wing extremists have in common is your intense fear and hatred of freedom and rights.

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.

Mikey's an impotent joke. He puts up no challenge, constantly contradicts himself, and lets me bitch slap him sillier post after post. I think Mikey enjoys being publicly abused and humiliated. Whatever makes the silly little kook happy is okay with me...

From:

RFK: One of the worst examples is the rewriting of New Source Review. I have three sons with asthma; one out of every four black kids in New York City now has asthma. Asthma attacks are triggered primarily by ozone and particulates, and the major sources of those materials in our atmosphere are 1,100 coal-burning power plants that are burning coal illegally. The Clinton administration had initiated investigations and prosecutions against 70 of the worst of those. But this is an industry that donated $48 million to President Bush and the Republican Party in the 2000 cycle and has given $58 million since. One of the first things that Bush did when he came into office was to order the Justice Department to drop those lawsuits. The Justice Department lawyer said that this had never happened before in American history, where a president accepts money from industries targeted for investigation and prosecution, and then orders the Justice Department to drop those investigations once he gets into office. There were 70 utilities involved here and, according to EPA, just the criminal exceedences from those 70 plants killed 5,500 Americans every year. Then the administration went and rewrote the Clean Air Act, gutting the New Source rule, which means those plants will be able to discharge ozone and particulates forever.

Independent Library Of Congress Study Confirms That Bush Mercury Rules Let Industry Off The Hook

(FRIDAY, April 22) -- A new Congressional Research Service (Library of Congress) report requested by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) confirms that most power plants will have to do nothing to reduce toxic mercury pollution from power plants for at least ten years under the Bush Administration's new mercury rules.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized a set of two rules on March 15. The first rule reversed a 2000 EPA decision that it is "necessary" and "appropriate" to regulate mercury from coal-fired power plants. The second rule established a "cap and trade" system under which utilities can either control mercury pollution or buy allowances from other plants. The new independent report released by Leahy validates many of the concerns about the Bush Administration?s mercury rule that were raised by states, public health officials and sportsmen at a Democratic Policy Committee hearing chaired by Senator Leahy on April 19 on Capitol Hill.

?This adds to the mountain of evidence that confirms the Bush Administration?s mercury rule is fatally flawed and steeped with favoritism to the big polluters,? said Leahy.

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.

And if YOU would learn to think for yourself instead of aping all the propaganda you see, hear, and/or read you would not be wasting everyone's' time with repeated postings of wasted rhetoric which few care to hear in this forum.

Must be a card carrying supporter of the ACLU... an organization founded by an avowed communist for the purpose of defending communists by claiming to represent the individual freedoms granted by the Constitution.

I noted your quote which supports the ideals of Socialism in Cuba.... along with such august organizations as truthout.org, and probably democracynow.org...

And what a crock, to claim that GWB would describe his own actions as murder, etc. That's as bad as thinking someone like Jeffrey Dahlmer would go around bragging about the murders he committed. Get real.

What do raging infernos and steel frame buildings, hurricanes, and war on terrorists have to do with Mustangs?

SNIP

What kind of AH professes to support individual freedoms and then attacks those who don't fall in line with his rhetoric like sheep to the slaughter? What's the matter, Hank, can't get it up unless you act like an idiot?

Quit stalking me and get a life.

You mean like when bu$h attacked the innocent People of Iraq, and destroyed their country, their lives, their homes, their cities, their museums, their libraries, their universities, and their sovereignty? I've been opposed to bu$h's illegal and immoral terrorism and war crimes from day one. What sane, humane person could support doing this...

...to innocent women and children, over lies and greed? Unlike bu$h, I don't attack people who disagree with me. I strive for communication and a calm, rational exchange of ideas. But of course, that can be quite a challenge when dealing with violent, closed minded extremists!

-

Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed to raging infernos for hours on end.

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled demolition.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie!" - bu$h, a few days before his FEMA chief, Micheal Brown was forced to resign because of his gross incompetence.

"The tools that enable Cuba to save lives and preserve human dignity during hurricanes are socialist values and organization." - Dr. W.T. Whitney Jr

Ever wonder who benefits from the 150 MILLION U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of warfare or morality." -bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.