GM's Next Monster

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Patrick) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

Very nice, but that motor will never be seen in any GTO. ;)

Now, SVT is rumored to be on the skids (no Lightning, maybe no Cobra), GM is coming out with a 7-liter 500hp monster, and DC has a 500hp QC SRT-10. What's wrong with this picture?

BTW, did you click the 'proven today' link on the Z06 page to the Caddy?

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Whats wrong with this picture is the diminishing supply of oil (increasing global demand) and the related increase in gas prices. The horsepower race faces the reality of operating costs. It happened before and it will happen again. I was there and remember it all to well.

LJH

Ummm, GTO's are ugly. :)

Let's hope so, they can call it a Ram Air VI, nobody will buy them, and I will have one a few years after... for cheap!

Steve

Nonsense. I was there as well, and the whole "gas crisis" was political. There was no real shortage, only politics as usual.

The horsepower wars will continue as long as people keep buying high- performance vehicles. The production numbers might not be as high as they used to be, but they'll be there regardless of operating costs.

What's wrong with the picture is that Ford appears to be bailing out of the performance market right now. Other makers aren't doing so, at least yet.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

"Larry Hepinstall" wrote in news:_oRed.757276$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

That's true for the most part, but thirty years ago China was picking rice by hand, and using horses and steam locomotives to move it.

With China now industrialized (check WalMart's products), their demand for fossil fuels for their factories and consumer use is growing exponentially, while the world's capacity to refine petroleum products hasn't increased at nearly the same rate.

John

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (John Del) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m04.aol.com:

Right. But we're nowhere near "running out". People in the continental U.S. are freaking because they've never paid over $2/gallon as the norm. Higher prices are here to stay, but the internal combustion engine's not going away for years to come.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Steve,

Ahhh, we meet again.

Yeah, that's what happened after the first muscle car era. Everyone dumped the big horsepower cars for cheap because they were "gas guzzlers." Makes you wonder if in 10-15 years, a LS1 or LS2 GTO will command big bucks from those trying to relive the "good ol' days".

Patrick '93 Cobra '83 LTD

We'll see.

I'm wondering if the addition of an LS2 will increase the GTO popularity, or if its looks will do it in?

Steve

The US Gov. Made the auto industry build "smog" cars. Lower compression, Cats, no big blocks and no-lead fuel. There happened to be a fuel shortage AFTER the fact, hence the Pinto, Vega and Gremlin types. US car co.'s could not build lighter smaller cars with that fangled plastic stuff and their cars were shit. I think the Government will tighten the noose on trucks and SUV's and we may see Diesel power, high price or not as the new "smog" vehicles. So the death of the 60's muscle car was pollution not the amount of gas we used. If a 460 big block drank a gal. of gas every 6 miles, but merely spewed out water from it's tail pipe, who would care?

Tropic Green Y2K 5 Speed Mustang GT P-1SC & Some MM Stuff

Patrick wrote:

My old friend Dwayne (gas tank launcher) got his grubby paws on a pair of for-real Ram Air V heads. My memory could be a bit off as to IV or V, but I believe they were V's. I saw them with me own peepers. He had them locked up in his toolbox. The selling price, once he very carefully brought them to "outta the box" order, was well into the thousands. I always thought Ram Air Pontiacs were a special breed???

Aga>

My one and a half cents:

On paper, the new GTO sounds great. In person, it's a big Grand Am.

I understand the Q-ship appeal to some, including the baby-boomer dads (with due respect) who want to say, "honey, it's a family sedan". Gotcha. But moderate politics don't inspire, to draw a loose, half-assed parallel.

To me, a car that is touted as BAD ASS and promises BAD ASS should look the part, especially in this age of FARTY RICERS. For GOD'S SAKE, John DeLorean did not drop a three-deuce 389 into a Tempest for any other reason than the Tempest could accept this plant, and most easily so. Six MPG was a point to BRAG about. Just look at the Judge with its hood tach, scoops, and wild (e.g., orange) paintjobs. Was THAT intended to be bland-vanilla? NO! Unabashedly ridiculous, wild and fast, I believe was the point. WHOO-HOO with smoking tires and no apologies forthcoming.

The new powertrain does not betray the GTO's lineage, IMO. The worn-bar-of-soap styling does. I was very disappointed, especially when looking at the new Mustang, Prowler, SS truck et al. Make a statement! I understand mass-marketing instead of niche-marketing, but I believe GM's middle-of-the-road approach failed to hit either one.

To quite a friend who sells these cars, "they sit, and sit, and sit. Many drive it and say, 'impressive', but then 'blah' a second later."

S>

Yep, pretty much. I drive by one every day on my way to work. Last week there was a yellow one, this week there is a red one. The looks don't inspire me to think, "sweet!" Of course I think the hemi guys have that trademarked now.

I agree that a newer performance car should come with a look. Although at the same time I'd like it to have a plane jane model that I can buy. An example of that is the fox Mustang 5.0's. Everyone else can have their GT's, I'll take the base model with the trunk any day!

Also, when DeLorean did drop that motor in, he didn't pick a flashy car. He took something available already and made it go. Now, is there anything in the Pontiac lineup (other than the discontinued Firebird that already had that motor) that he could drop either the LS1 or LS2 in and go - or as you put it, "could accept this plant?" No, so what did they do... they went and got something that already had this plant - a modified Australian Monaro. If it weren't for the Monaro, there would be no GTO, period. Now, the first generation was a visual failure. It's time for Pontiac to step up and learn from this. I've seen some possible versions with a much more aggressive looking body. If that happens, good.

Also understand that the Judge was a few years down the line from the introduction of the GTO. Before that, they were all plain Tempest/LeMans with the right drivertrain. They did have the hoodscoop, but that's about it. The only thing about the Judge, GSX, and W30's, is that everything they had could be gotten in the plain version of the same car. Olds also had a Ralley 350 that was visually wild, but in most versions wasn't much of anything from a fast standpoint. The same went for the Buick. They later had the GSX package as an option that you could put on a GS350. Once again, it was wild but not fast.

The only thing Pontiac didn't do regarding the choice of body, was pick a 4 door sedan that had a 2 door variant (I say this not really knowing if there was a 4 door Monaro though). That's what the GTO, 442, Chevelle SS (big blocks), and Buick GS were... the mid level sedan, in 2 door version, with their biggest mill stuck between the fenders. Traction be damned. Things changed a bit come the mid 70's when the GTO and GSX went to the Nova body. How is the new GTO so far off from that?

All that being said, it's still blah looking and that's what is hurting the sales (that and the heavy weight that slows down that great motor).

Steve

popularity, or

Wound Up wrote

Here's my unresearched recollection of the Ram Air family tree:

First came the Ram Air GTO's and Firebird 400's. '67's for sure, maybe earlier. They weren't called "Ram Air I's," because there WAS no "Ram Air I + n."

In '68, there was the Ram Air II Firebird 400. I don't think they put this motor in the GTO; it was a Firebird exclusive. As it turns out, this head was the best of all the Poncho regular production castings, and is highly prized by the Stock Appearing Drags crowd.

Next came the Ram Air III, in '69.

In 1970 came the Ram Air IV 400's and 455's, and the Ram Air V 455. The Ram Air V was a solid lifter engine like the LS6 Chevy 455. Unlike the LS6 it was never installed at the factory; it was over the counter only.

The next hot Pontiac was the '74 Firebird Trans Am 455 Super Duty. The next one after that was the '98 Firebird with a LS1 Gen III Chevy. Well, there were also TPI Chevy 350's and LT1's that were hotter than most of the '60's engines.

So the time is right for a Ram Air VI GTO.

Wound up,

All good points except this one. The original Goat looked just like a plain 'ol '64 Tempest/Pontiac. The little hood scoop and a few GTO badges were the only things added to dress it up a little bit. The '05 GTO follows that original formula to a tee. In fact, if you look at all the early '60's muscle cars they were all just plain ol' sedans. It wasn't until the later half the of the 60's, that the muscle cars added "image." This image, the wild scoops, paint colors, scoops etc. were added mostly to differentiate the cars from each other.

Patrick '93 Cobra '83 LTD

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Patrick) wrote

OK, here we go again. A seven liter engine in a Vette is a 427!!!! Leave this metric system crap to the French surrender monkeys who invented it!

Dag-nabb-it.

I have to look for badges to be sure it IS one.

I do understand that appeal. And BTW I like the LX 5.0s better because they're "cleaner looking". Just never was a fan of the GT styling. As you know, there is a marginal performance gain due to weight and drag, esp. with the LX notch.

I wasn't aware they used an existing car, but it makes sense. My thought was "what's all the hype about; look at the thing! Isn't Pontiac the 'we build excitement' marque?" I know that's an old tagline, but it's how they've positioned themselves in the market. Look at the Sunfire. Looks like a jet fighter, if you like that. I think it's hideous, but at least it makes a statement.

That did occur to me, that the wilder versions came a few years later, but I still thought (not knowing it was built from a Monaro) it was a new platform entirely. Seems like history is repeating itself.

Not far... but the sheetmetal boys could have done SOMETHING...

I've heard people say "disappointing" after driving one. My Pontiac friend hates it. It should be more agile as well... I'm curious how long it's going to be before the next version appears...

Ahh... that explains part of it.

Seems to be true...

Yes.... I thought, and realized that this was the way the original muscle car eveolved, but I thought the 05 GTO was entirely new. When I SAW one, I thought "hmm... even LESS stylistically bold than a Sunfire. Not impressed." Of course, the Sunfire's audience cannot be considered to be "muscle-car folk".

As Steve pointed out as well, the 05 GTO was the same deal - a re-badged, 2-door family sedan, most likely out of necessity. But still, I think 40 years later, some more tweaks to the sheetmetal could have been done to merit the hype.

I hope the new one is more aggressively styled... thanks for the reply

French surrender monkeys... well, uniform base 10 just makes more sense. At least they got one thing right, I guess, right? I guess 8-)

And wasn't the XR-7 E badged "7 Litre"?

A poke in the ribs, Wound Up