Back when few cars had ABS available as an option, many insurance companies gave a discount for cars that were ABS equipped.
The Formula One sanctioning body banned ABS, as a competitive advantage.
Think about how and why insurance companies give discounts (hint - statistical analysis), and the level of skill present in the typical F1 driver's braking foot (hint - way more than you or I), and think about your statement one more time with those facts in mind.
I've never needed more than a token ABS application in a car, as I try to anticipate conditions, as well as drive stick shifts (the forgotten control!). I have locked wheels on wet runways landing non-ABS equipped aircraft, which is not a nice feeling, and I can tell you that machinery can do better than I can any day, under high-performance stopping situations.
NHTSA has several complaints in the database for this problem. These are typical:
"MY WIFE EXPERIENCED BRAKE FAILURE AND WAS FORCED TO MOVE INTO THE LEFT LANE TO AVOID HITTING THE CAR IN FRONT OF HER. SHE WAS TRAVELING AT A LOW RATE OF SPEED, LESS THAN 10 MPH, AS SHE APPROACHED A STOP LIGHT. THE VEHICLE WAS ON A SLIGHT INCLINE, AND THE ANTI-LOCK BRAKES PULSATED, THEN, THE BRAKE WENT COMPLETELY TO THE FLOORBOARD. SHE IMMEDIATELY TOOK THE VEHICLE TO THE DEALERSHIP, AND WAS TOLD THAT OTHER CUSTOMERS HAD COMPLAINED OF THE SAME PROBLEM, AND DAIMLER CHRYSLER HAD BEEN CONTACTED, BUT HAD DONE NOTHING TO SOLVE THIS OBVIOUSLY VERY DANGEROUS SAFETY PROBLEM."
"A NUMBER OF TIMES WE HAVE HAD A TEMPORARY BUT A COMPLETE BRAKE FAILURE IN THE SAME SPOT IN THE SAME ROAD. THIS HAS ONLY HAPPENED AFTER A COLD START, WITH ME DRIVING. MY WIFE HAS WITNESSED THE FAILURE TWICE, SO SHE NOW KNOWS I'M NOT CRAZY. THE ROAD IS GOOD AND UP HILL, APPROACHING A STOP SIGN. THE ONLY CONSEQUENCES SO FAR ARE SOME GREY HAIR. THE INTERSECTION IN QUESTION IS A 55 MPH INTERSECTION. A NUMBER OF TIMES I HAVE ALMOST RAN INTO TRAFFIC. FORTUNATELY I APPROACH THE INTERSECTION SLOW ENOUGH TO GET OFF THE ROAD AND STAY OUT OF TRAFFIC. THE CAR HAS BEEN BACK TO THE DEALER 3 TIMES. I AM SATISFIED THAT THE DEALER HAS DONE EVERYTHING IN THERE POWER TO FIX THE CAR. I HAVE CONTACTED THE MANUFACTURE A COUPLE OF TIMES ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. THEY COULD NOT CARE LESS."
"THE CONTACT OWNS A 2006 JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE. THE CURRENT AND FAILURE MILEAGE WERE 16739. WHILE DRIVING 35 MPH UP A HILL THE CONTACT WAS COMING TO A STOP LIGHT AND THE VEHICLE SLOWED DOWN BUT WOULD NOT STOP. THE CONTACT HAD TO PUMP THE BRAKES VERY HARD. THE BRAKE PEDAL WENT DOWN PARTIALLY. THE VEHICLE HAD TO BE PULLED OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, AND THEN TOWED TO A DEALER. THE DEALER COULD NOT DUPLICATE THE PROBLEM, AND STATED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS SAFE TO DRIVE."
Seems like the ABS system is screwing up. Interestingly there is nothing in the NHTSA database related to the defect investigation or the actual recall.
"Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
This was back before studied showed that ABS was not effective at reducing insurance losses. Most companies no longer offer a discount for ABS, mostly becasue it is not effective in reducing insurance losses. IIHS and NHTSA have literally spent millions trying to make excuses for the ineffectiveness of ABS and have failed. NHTSA finally gave up on trying to force ABS down our throats (at one time they palnned to require ABS, but gave up when they could not show a benefit). However, recently with backing of IIHS, NHTSA has found a new way to force ABS on us - VSC (Vehicle Stability Control). You can have VSC without ABS. Rather than make make the same mistake they made with ABS, NHTSA is fording VSC to be installed on all vehicles before there is any proof that it works or it doesn't. My opinion is VSC is just as wqorthless as ABS, 5 mph, 3third brake lights, etc. It sounds good in theory, but in practice there is no real safety benefit.
They outlawed traction control as well. But this was for very high performance cars, driven by skilled professional, under relatively controlled conditions. This has little or no bearing on what happen in the "real" world.
Statistical analysis is why most iinsurance companies stopped giving discounts for ABS. It doesn't improve overall safety.
This was back before studied showed that ABS was not effective at reducing insurance losses. Most companies no longer offer a discount for ABS, mostly because it is not effective in reducing insurance losses. IIHS and NHTSA have literally spent millions trying to make excuses for the ineffectiveness of ABS and have failed. NHTSA finally gave up on trying to force ABS down our throats (at one time they planned to require ABS, but gave up when they could not show a benefit). However, recently with backing of IIHS, NHTSA has found a new way to force ABS on us - VSC (Vehicle Stability Control). You cannot have VSC without ABS. Rather than make the same mistake they made with ABS, NHTSA is forcing VSC to be installed on all vehicles before there is any proof that it works or it doesn't. In my opinions VSC is just as worthless as ABS, 5 mph, third brake lights, etc. It sounds good in theory, but in practice there is no real safety benefit.
They outlawed traction control as well. But this was for very high performance cars, driven by skilled professional, under relatively controlled conditions. This has little or no bearing on what happen in the "real" world.
Statistical analysis is why most insurance companies stopped giving discounts for ABS. It doesn't improve overall safety.
OK now I'm stumped, you guys mean to say, if the ABS was activated an ABS light would appear on the dashboard? and the brake pedal would go down to the floorboard (or maybe a change in pedal pressure)? is this for a Toyota or all cars with ABS? If this is true then I have never actually truly used ABS. And I keep praising ABS thinking I used them in avoiding car crashes.
But ABS is not giving it to them. Some sorts of crashes are reduced for vehicles with ABS compared to vehicles without ABS, other sorts of crashes increase. Giving unskilled drivers the ability to steer in panic situations is not always a good thing. Sometimes it is better to just plow straight ahead with locked brakes. Unfortunately we no longer have the ability to collect meaningful statistics on the safety benefit of ABS equipped cars versus not ABS equipped cars. The comparison has always been difficult since for the most part, cars not equipped with ABS are cheaper models with less capable tires. These days most cars come with ABS, so there is no meaningful baseline for comparison.
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BTW, my negative feelings for ABS only apply to passenger cars. These are generally lightly loaded, and even when loaded, the front to rear brake balance is not greatly different. Because of this, it is relatively easy to design a braking system where the brake balance is properly set to insure the front brakes lock up first. Rear wheel ABS is a good thing for load carrying vehicles. For these vehicles, the load on the rear brakes can vary drastically. It is not practical to design brakes that are sufficient for a loaded vehicle that don't also tend to suffer rear wheel lock up when the vehicle is lightly loaded. Rear wheel ABS is the perfect solution for these vehicles. I also don't mind if ABS is an optional performance accessory for cars.
I think it depends on the system design. The Chevy PU I used to drive at work wouldn't pulse the pedal, it would just get VERY hard and the brakes would slack off. When the brakes came back on, the pedal would get softer and drop a little. Our Mercury GM seems to pulse the pedal. I don't know about our Corolla, I've never had them activate.
Let me tell you, for a guy who has been driving since 1959, losing your brakes is a very scary thing to have happen.
I don't really have a problem with ABS, if they work right. My problem with them is that it takes too long for the system to sense that the wheels are back on dry pavement.
As I stated, they got me in trouble once because they didn't reset fast enough. They did what they were supposed to do, kept the wheels from locking up, but they didn't let me brake again until it was almost too late. If my vehicle had not had ABS, I would have accepted the wheel lock and waited until I was through the sand then hit the bakes harder. I was braking hard but not anywhere near an emergency or panic stop.
I keep wondering what OS my cars use. If it's Windows 98, I up s--t creek without a paddle.
Ruh-roh...Better upgrade that puppy to XP at least.. I'm still on the sidelines as far as Vista.. I tend to avoid excess bloat in OS's as long as I can get away with it.. Besides, I had just upgraded to XP not long before Vista started hitting the scene.. But.. Eventually I'll probably have to go to Vista, and those reasons are purely flight sim graphics related using direct X 10. Otherwise, they can keep it for now.. I'm also not really that "anti ABS".. To each his own.. But.. I just don't really need it much. I generally don't get myself in situations where it's that critical. The regular brakes in my corolla are just right as far as I like them. Very predictable, which is what I generally prefer. We had a ford van for work that we bought new with ABS.. What was the first part to flake out on it, while still under warranty? You guessed it.. The ABS module, or whatever it was that flaked out.. You should have seen the price to fix it, if it hadn't been under warranty.. :( They can keep it just for the extra complexity and more to go wrong and cost $$$ to fix as far as I'm concerned.. :/ MK
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