I know there's people from Mass here: the Clods are at it again...

Let's start over again. I will try to walk you through this.

Now start again, go ahead. You are in the right lane, I am in the right lane in front of you. We are on a city street and come upon a red semiphore. We stop, but you being behind me want to make a right turn on the red, keep in mind, there is no provision in the law at least in the state that I live that mandates giving you the right of way in that situation, you will have to wait. You expect me to get the hell out of your way by manuvering my car which is stopped just behind a crosswalk and the intersection. How do I do that? It seems like a very stupid thing to try and do. The right turn on red was introduced some years back for cars to make right turns after first coming to a FULL stop, when they could while the light is red and IF the coast is clear, if it is not and someone hits you while you are proceding into the intersection on a red light even though you stopped first you will be found at fault and ticketed. If there is a car in front of you it does not make it practical for you to make a right turn at that time either now does it?

How is this not clear to you? Now, you will come back and say I should have seen your turn signal on though my rear view mirror and then at that time moved the hell out of YOUR way. What if I were going to make a right turn myself into a driveway just a few feet past the intersection, OR, what if traffic is heavy and I were going to make a right turn on the next block? How would I change back into the right lane when traffic rapidly closed the gap left by you. This what you propose will do nothing to promote even traffic flow, it only would serve your selfish interest.

Last paragraph first: You've described situations in which this obviously would not work.

First paragraph: Obviously, if I'd come to a complete stop, first in line at the red light, it would be awkward to try and creep into the left lane to let you (and maybe other cars) turn right. I'm referring to situations where you're APPROACHING the light, with plenty of distance to change lanes gracefully. As far as selfish, I'm talking about ME doing this for OTHER people. Do you like sitting at red lights? What MPG are you getting when you're standing still?

Perhaps this is hard for you to understand because you are only partially aware of what's going on outside of your car. This is a very common problem.

But really, none of this is the issue. Before a certain point in history, many states had NO right-on-red provisions. It was not legal. Then, it changed. I wondered if you remembered why it changed, and (roughly) when.

Inviolable Rule: There is no such thing as a "Temporary" Tax or Fee. Or a "Temporary" Government Agency. Anybody that votes to enact them because of any promises that "It's only temporary!" is a fool.

They are self-perpetuating, and even if you insert "Sunset Clauses" will still get themselves renewed as needed to guarantee their continued existence. Refer to the Federal Excise Tax that was originally enacted to retire the debt from the Spanish-American War two centuries ago...

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You changed the conditions again.

I have never had any problem waiting for someone in the right lane ahead of me when I wanted to turn right on a red. The wait is not very long.

Please explain.

No. These are the original conditions from earlier messages.

All traffic lights, everywhere in America, are set to change in the same number of seconds. And, traffic is the same, everywhere in America. I understand.

Early to mid 1970s, during the oil crisis. How old were you at that time?

I said I'm waiting for you to tell me, so go ahead and tell me why it changed and roughly when. I am waiting for your response.

It was legal in many states well before the 1970's.

Old enough to drive and you?

Yes, this was stated very early on.

It was? Maybe I'll Google this later.

Cathy

At the beginning he said he or his son wants to make a right turn on red and the car in front should move over to the next lane to allow them to do so. Now he is the one in the front. Changing story, small, but never the less, changing. Joe is like chameleon.

By all means. Google is your friend.

It was. I recall my dad mentioning that somewhere in his business travels, he saw lots of signs saying "Right on red allowed after stop". Not sure if these locations were rare exceptions, or what. But, it was legal in some places before the oil crisis.

Yep, looks like it. Without perusing tons of pages, all I could really find was a Wikipedia article

"Right turn on red (RTOR) is a principle of law permitting vehicles at a traffic light showing red to turn right (after a complete stop) when the roadway is clear. RTOR has been practiced in the western United States for more than 50 years, with the eastern states adopting the law in the 1970s. All 50 states as well as the District of Columbia, Guam, and Puerto Rico have allowed right turns on red since January 1, 1980, unless a sign otherwise prohibits this. In the 1970s, some states instituted the practice to save fuel (see 1973 oil crisis and 1979 energy crisis). From 1982-1992, approximately 84 fatal crashes per year occurred in the U.S. where a vehicle was turning right at intersections where RTOR was permitted. [citation needed]"

Cathy

It's illegal in NYC (or at least in Manhattan, AFAIK), and I don't think school buses are allowed right-on-red (at least in NYS).

Cathy

The change was gradual here in MA. For quite some time my town had only one right turn on red. This particular intersect still has another sign that reads to stop first and then turn right. If the first driver plans on turning right he's not required to do so until the light becomes red. Plain and simple. Passing a stationary vehicle on the right was illegal at one time here in MA. The law was changed to accommodate a certain politician who killed a pedestrian while passing on the right of a stationary vehicle attempting to turn left.

mark_

Right on reds have been legal in Canada for....decades. Quebec was the last holdout province.

Yes, but this was the whole STATE. The State determines Right on Red, for the most part. The State determines truck weight limits and fees. The State determines who pumps gas.

Of course the STATE was being run by a Democrat, the second of 3 governors in the 20th century to be convicted. Otto Koerner (1961-68D), Dan Walker1972-76 (D) and George Ryan (1998-2002) (R-Democrat). Seeing a pattern here? Were I Abraham Lincoln, I'd probably made sure people thought I was from Indiana after all the shenanigans in Illinois in the 20th century. Yes, I'm calling shenanigans on Illinois.

Charles of Schaumburg

It IS a long time if you are a legend in your own mind like Joe.

Or a young punk getting a H.J..

It doesn't matter if the wait is 3 seconds, or 2 minutes, as it is at some lights. Multiply the wasted fuel by millions of cars, and suddenly it matters a LOT. If you don't agree, then you must be a rich Arab.