Camry oil change: what a mess

And your owner's manual says.....

Reply to
Travis Jordan
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Which engine?

Reply to
Travis Jordan

Do the 5/30 not 10/40. The engine is designed for 5/30. In some special cases MAYBE 10/30. Never 10 /40.The 10/40 will have a tendency to shear quicker because of the additive package.

Reply to
W.T. MC GLYNN

YAWN. Old wive's tale. Have you noticed Mobil1 "extended performance" comes in a 10w-40?

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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

Read your manual usualy 10-30 or 40 is allowed above certain temps. But if cap says 5-30 it says 5-30 for a reason. Unless driving hard , fast, etc, 5-30 flows better cold and gives better milage.

Reply to
m Ransley

In my opinion you should stay away from 10W40. All oil is better now, so it is likely than the 10W40 will do just fine, but in the past 10W40 oil was alleged to be more likely to experience oil breakdown than other viscosity ranges. What does your owners manual say about using alternate weights of oil? If you really want something heavier than 5W30, I'd suggest 15W40 as a good alternative.

Regards,

Ed White

Reply to
C. E. White

But Mobil 1 is a high quality fully synthetic oil. I am not nearly as confident of the quality of random conventional

10W40 oils. Admittedly, today's 10W40 oils are much better than the 10W40 oils of the '70's and '80s, but persoanlly I still stay away from them. If I want a heavier grade, I prefer one of the many good quality 15W40 oils available.

And yes, my personal recommendation against conventional

10W40 might be based on obsolete information. However, unless the vehicle manucturer specifically recommends this grade, I believe you should stay away from it or at least the conventional oil versions of 10W40 oil. I am sure Mobil 1 10W40 oil is good stuff - but expensive.

Regards,

Ed White

Reply to
C. E. White

The ONLY condition where a 5w-30 would (supposedly) give better fuel mileage (by way of less viscous drag) than 10w-30 is during the minutes/miles the engine oil takes to achieve operating temperature. Once operating temperature is achieved, the two oils will have the same viscosity. Hardly a measurable difference in the RealWorld®.

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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

Get up to date, Ed. MOBIL1 "Extended Performance" oil comes in 10w-40. Deal with that old wives tale of yours. LOL You should also know by now that oil weight has only a small bearing on an oil's performance and quality. Familiarize yourself with the ACEA performance specs.

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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

As I said earlier ... deal with your need to harbor old wive's tales. Isn't it you who defends Ford as a quality car NOW and that those who judge the current crop by Ford experiences of 30 yrs ago are a handicapped? LOL

It is.

Disagree. UNTIL you know WHY the manufacturer makes a recommendation ... truly know ... then you are demonstrating lazy thinking. When the primary objective is obtaining optimum fuel mileage on EPA tests at the cost of some reduced engine life, what are you going to do with that "recommendation?" Hmmmm? Suppose your oil operating temperatures are significantly higher on average or the engine runs a higher percentage of the time under heavy load? Suppose now your car has 150k miles on it. Very possible/probable that running a thin oil results in very low oil pressure when hot and idling. Or results in unnecessary oil consumption.

Think. It hurts only until you stop.

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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

It is a new car, so I don't see the need for worrying about

150k miles. If I was in Texas and pulling heavy loads, then I'd consider using 15W40. But since this is a Camry, and assuming you aren't exceeding Toyota's load / tow rating, I doubt the oil temperature will vary much from the norm. I've only had a couple of cars with an oil temperature gauge, and for those, once the car was warmed up, the oil temperature varied very little no matter what I did - but then I rarely (never?) abuse my cars. The vehicles I use for towing all include auxiliary coolers, (but unfortunately no oil temperature gauge). I assume the cooler keeps the oil temperatures in an acceptable range.

As I recall, you supported the reasoning that certain Toyota engines had problems with sludge because the owners didn't follow Toyota's recommendations for oil changes. Now you seem to be supporting ignoring those same recommendations. Is that correct? I believe you should follow the recommendations. If Toyota recommends (or at least allows) the use of 10W40 oil, then I don't see a problem. If they don't allow its use, I'd say don't do it. If you still think you need thicker oil (for whatever reason) then I'd suggest using a quality 15W40 oil. You accuse be of clinging to old wives tails (10W40 breakdown), but then perpetuate the idea that thicker oil provides superior wear characteristics. I don't have the means to prove (or disprove) that 10W40 is more likely to breakdown than 5W30 or 15W40, but I'll bet you can't prove that 10W40 oil provides superior wear protection compared to 5W30 oil either.

There is a lot of mythology associated with motor oil. Maybe my dislike of 10W40 is based on old data. However, unless Toyota recommends its use, I think I am correct when I recommend against its use. You seem certain in your knowledge that Toyota only specifies 5W30 oil because of fuel economy concerns. Do you have any proof of this, or is it just a guess? How about the idea that they originally specified it because of fuel economy concerns and then, over time, refined their engines so that they were optimized for that viscosity of oil?

The following is from a 1998 SAE Paper - "Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance"

"Similarly, double length (192 hour) PSA TU3M High Temperature tests were also conducted. As with the Sequence IIIE test, the key parameter in the PSA TU3M HT test is oil viscosity increase. Data for several oils are shown in Figure 5. Syn A 0W-30 and Syn D 0W-40 showed excellent viscosity control, passing the 40% ACEA limit even after double (192 hours) the normal test length. Single length results on two SAE 10W-40 oils, Min L and PartVHVI P, are shown for comparison. Mineral oil based Min L 10W-40 failed to meet the viscosity requirement in this test, presumably due to excessive volatility of light base stock components, leaving behind a heavier lubricant fraction. PartVHVI P

10W-40 passed at single length, but the trend of the oil viscosity data suggests that this oil would have exceeded the 40% viscosity increase limit shortly after the 96 hour normal test length."

Doesn't this passage make you wonder about using conventional 10W40 oil?

In this same paper they compared wear rates for various viscosity grades of synthetic oil There was no advantage associated with using the heavier oil - although there were variations associated with different formulations (additive packages). They also conducted "real world" test that confirmed this. The following text is from the same paper:

"Detailed engine inspections and component measurements were conducted on the two 2.0 L I4 run on Syn E 5W-20 and Syn F

5W-40, the 3.4 L V6 run on Syn G 5W-30, and the 3.8 L V6 run on Syn H 5W-30. Results of the inspections are summarized below. ? Overall engine wear was very low with most measured parts being within the manufacturer?s tolerances for a new engine. ? Camshaft lobes and valve lifters showed negligible wear and no pitting. ? Cylinder bores had clearly visible hatch marks and no visible ridge at top of ring travel. ? Rod and main bearings were in good condition with only minor polishing and no abnormal distress."

The following was copied from a 1998 Paper "Fuel Efficiency of SAE 5W-20 Friction Modified Gasoline Engine Oil" written by two Toyota engineers:

"The optimum HTHS viscosity to improve fuel economy without increasing wear or oil consumption in typical Toyota engines is 2.6 mPa×s, which corresponds to the SAE 5W-20 grade."

Regards,

Ed White

Reply to
C. E. White

Phil you are wrong Did you ever use a Viscosity cup, No. Well I have one and have tested oils 10-30 is thicker than 5-30 at all temperatures, I dont care what the label says, it is thicker.

Reply to
m Ransley

The oil viscosity is a Great subject to debate but I'm afraid that not replacing the oil filter can really begin wearing the engine bearings and clog the valve lifters. But I was hoping somebody could tell me where the THE Oil FILTER is on a New Toyota Camry. I couldn't see it from above the car and the owners manuel does not indicate where it is. Do I need to Jack up the car and get on my back to screw with it? Where is the oil filter?

Reply to
cliffhanger

Well, I imagine someone will help you on this. I have an '03

4-cylinder, but they changed the car in '04.

Having said that, I doubt that they changed the location for the oil filter. On the '03 it is mounted vertically, on the passenger side of the car, between the oil pan and the radiator, roughly.

You will have to crawl under the car. It is sort of stuck up in a narrow tunnel, just past the edge of the plastic skid plate, since the filter is a shorty, it really doesn't protrude much and it can be difficult to spot the bottom of it unless you get down to ground level.

This wonderful location almost insures a mess when you pull it. My new plan is to try the icepick idea (actually a sharp nail).

If you want to make simple, buy a fumoto oil drain valve. It replaces the drain plug and really makes the whole oil pan change much easier.

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Fram makes one too, but after hearing about Fram filters.....

Reply to
timbirr

I am right. Clear your mind and re-read what I posted.

Now ... as for your "viscosity cup." Your "test" was conducted at room temperature for your claim to be true. The API would put 10w-40 on the label if what you claim (10w-30) is thicker "at all temperatures" than

5w-30.
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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

Did you want to address the other conditions I posed for diviating from the manufacturer's new car oil recommendation?

That is incorrect. I have stated so many times that I should write a function key/canned response here. "Oil service intervals appropriate for the operating conditions."

Depends on my oil mileage service intervals. If I was a religious, died in the wool 3,000 oil changer, I would not be too concerned. The test summary above does not mention WHICH ACEA spec any of the tested oils were being measured against. There are SEVERAL you know. (A,B, E, 1,2,3,5 in each).

Oy. How many hours/miles were these laboratory engines operated?

If you assume an overall average speed of 27.5 mph over 150,000 miles, you have 5,454 hrs ... roughly. By this accumulated mileage, most cars running the factory recommended oil weight are using more oil than they did after the initial break-in period. Why is this? You know the answer. But is the factory concerned about this? No. They need to get the highest MPG rating for EPA mileage stats as reduced viscous drag oils will afford.

One of the functions of the lubricating oil is to -cushion- parts from each other. That's something only viscosity will provide. The primary reason truthful, real time oil pressure gauges have been removed (largely) is that customers started noticing oil pressure dropping to almost nothing at idle when the engine was hot and idling in gear. How would you feel about seeing such low pressure in your new car? Many people insisted there was a mechanical problem.

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   ~Philip.
Reply to
Philip

Actually, if you look at Mobil's specifications, the 5W-30 is thicker than the 10W-30 at 100C.

I quite sure Mobil knows how to measure this properly.

Reply to
jjnunes

Well what you assume I did, phil is wrong . My neighbor is a distributor of Royal Purple . He has the Bearing test machine and all competing brands in his stock. I took a few quarts and did some basic tests for fun. 1st I left 5 different quarts to cool to - 10 overnight and tested them in a cold viscosity cup, Basicly I found no 5-30 was equal at -10f in flow. Then I put oil in a pot and raised its temp to

180f. Again I found non equal but that 5-30 flowed more. The test was along time ago, 12 yrs+? not on the modern Mobil 1 formulation, non scientific in recording of results and just for fun as to flowing. Do your own test with a few different brands and weights. You only need a cup with a very small hole so the oil can be measured over time as to flow, a stove, a thermometer, and pot. You could make your own cup but need to get a very small hole in it. Have fun, try it and let me know what you find out.
Reply to
m Ransley

Phil , In real world conditions, which are what counts. I Notice a difference of 5-30 to 10-30 at all temperatures.

Reply to
m Ransley

Here is Mobil 1s Super Syn viscosity index of oils.

0-40=185 0-30=176 5-30=169 10-30=145
Reply to
m Ransley

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