OT: traffic cameras

Hey! Dem be fightin' words..... .....'c'mere so I can slap you.....wait....I might break a nail......c'mere so I can call you a b**th.......:)

Sneaks...

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:05:14 GMT, "Sneaks" left Mt Vesuvius in a state of jealous awe as he began spewing from the mouth thusly:

Booth? Broth? Berth? I'm not following along. :-P

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

corrodes the vessel that carries it.

On 04 Aug 2003 16:46:29 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Anton382) ran around screaming and yelling:

"following too closely" is a ticketable offense in most states...if the car in front of you stops and you *can't* then you were not following at a "safe" distance....it *all* comes back to poor drivers making excuses... J

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:43:47 GMT, "Sneaks" ran around screaming and yelling:

well the whiners would say so...the "human" obviously realized you had a bad day and deserved a break BTW congrats on actually admitting you were wrong instead of rationalizing it with being stressed or preoccupied about some fire somewhere... J

The intersections here in Mesa, Chandler and Scottsdale that have the red light cameras are in 45 and 50 mph zones. The yellow light is on for 2.5 to 3 seconds total time. I agree completely that anyone can stop a car doing 30-35 mph with that amount of time. But when you increase the speed of traffic by a factor of 1.5 it takes nearly twice the time and distance to stop. Edmunds.com shows that it takes a total of

4 seconds to slow a mid-size car doing 50mph to a complete stop in 200 feet. Heavier minivans, trucks and SUVs require longer times and distances to stop at 50 mph, at nearly 5 seconds and 300 feet.

"Skidding into the intersection" is not a matter of reckless driving, it's simply a matter of physics. If you are travelling at 50 mph when the 3 second yellow light signal begins, you will take 4 seconds to come to a complete stop. That last second will have you crossing over the threshold as the red light turns on. To safely stop before the threshold, you will need to start braking at 200 feet from the intersection, or roughly 3/4 of a football field away. But by the time the yellow light turns on, you are already 140 feet from the threshold.

Here's the Arizona Tribune article which discusses the lockheed-martin contract fixing for yellow light times and why the city of Mesa removed some of their cameras in

2001. Please take note where the Mesa traffic engineer reports that they increased the yellow light up to 4 seconds (was originally 3):

All I'm asking is that they match the physics of traffic and allow for a 5-6 second yellow light. Then photograph anyone who blows through after 6 seconds.

Joey, when someone pulls up alongside and parks your motorcycle in their blind spot, backing off in traffic only compounds the danger. The blindspot extends for three to four car lengths alongside a car with the mirrors aimed straight back. By the time you would back off four car lengths in heavy traffic, the other cars behind you will observe you slowing down below the speed limit and will start passing you as well. When you drive a stock interstate-class cycle that is nearly silent, many people will pass by you and forget that you are in the blind spot after a few seconds. When they close upon a slower car ahead of them, they will instinctively pull over into your lane to pass, since they can no longer see or hear you. I have tried your idea before and it only increases the number of lane incursions. By pulling up and maintaining side-visual-contact, I have very few lane incursions. I've driven cycles for over 25 years and this is the only safe way to protect the lane. I have also discussed this situation with the city and state motorcycle officers and they concur that it is safer to maintain visual contact with the traffic around you at all times.

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:16:58 GMT, "Kris Staller" ran around screaming and yelling:

side-visual-contact, I have

only safe

kris, i agree wholeheartedly that visual contact is the best and safest way...my onlypoint was that if you choose to speed up to remove yourself from a blindspot, you have *chosen* to chance a ticket...i am a bike rider myself, and i know all too well how cars "forget" you are there...but i stand by my views, that if someone knowingly *chooses* to exceed the speedlimit then they can't complain about a ticket for doing so.... as far as traffic cameras, i'm kinda tired of the subject, to be honest, they may be a "revenue" maker, but they are no different than a strictly enforced speedlimit on a stretch of road...we have several small towns near me that have large signs when entering that the speedlimit is "strictly" enforced...and those signs do not lie...but after the towns' "reputation" was out the traffic flow is nice, steady, and at the posted speedlimit...is it safer? who knows, the police claim the number of "serious accidents" are lower, and with the reduced speed(from 55 to 45) you have more time to react to others' actions, so i tend to believe it *is* safer, but that is my opinion...i *wish* we had more traffic cameras near me..we have very few on our newest intersections...these are normally heavily traveled, and heavy accident rate intersections that may have been converted from traffic signs to traffic lights.....just today i myself watched as *THREE* frigging idiots behind the wheel blew through a stoplight...the *first* one blew threw it nearly two-three seconds

*after* the light changed...i saw it up close and personal since i was behind a loaded 18-wheeler(log truck) that managed to stop no problem...then the "idiots" in the left lane, that were actually behind us in traffic, blew the light....a camera, a cop, or a frigging spikestrip won't stop these people...but maybe a serious accident involving a vehicle that had the green light for ten seconds before they decided the light didn't apply to them, would....do you think even that would? J

I was going through some training is Scottsdale recently. I was in the left turn lane of the main intersection in that town. I believe it was N. Scottsdale Road and Camelback.

The speed limit here is 35 MPH. In the time it took for me to wait until my left turn lane got the green arrow. (almost all other traffic directions went before mine did) I saw the flash of the Red Light Camera no less than 5 times.

These were from people waiting for the light and other traffic, and not wanting to get caught behind the Red for another cycle. Their speed was no greater than 25 or 30. These are the idiots that the Cameras were designed to deter. Those who would blast through intersections because of inconsideration, impatience and recklessness.

The Phoenix Paper this week had articles on 2 more fatalities in 2 separate accidents from Red Light runners.

The one thing that would save more lives than cameras or extended yellows, or anything else, is a 1-2 second delay where the light is red for all directions when shifting traffic flow signals. This would allow the idiots who try to press the issue a chance to get a real good picture taken, before they slam into an innocent driver.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:51:40 -0700, "Alan Nelson" ran around screaming and yelling:

stiffer penalties and loss of driving *privelages* may help to deter habitual offenders...as it is now, you pay your fine, accumulate a few points on your liscense which may or may not affect the price of auto insurance(depending on state and insurance company) and then continue to break the same law to save a few "precious" *seconds* at the risk of many precious lives...doesn't seem like a worthwile gamble to

*me*...just my opinion... J

The only reason we have traffic laws is to have some amount of safety on the roads. To maintain that someone should be ticketed for driving in a way that is less dangerous (in this case exceeding the speed limit to avoid a blind spot) is ridiculous. If you agree that speeding up on a bike is safer than slowing down when in a blind spot, how can you say that a person who receives a ticket for doing so "can't complain"?

-Chip

side-visual-contact, I have

the only safe

contact with the

Choices......................

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

On 8 Aug 2003 07:27:41 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Chip Keller) ran around screaming and yelling:

sorry chip, but you misunderstood my post...i *agree* with not being in a blindspot..whether it be on a bike, car, etc...i also was not aware that there are varying degrees of breaking the law, other than the classifications set forth by the speedlimit law...in my area it is

1-9 over 10-19 over and over 20 mph over the speedlimit...if the offense fits into one of those catagories, and was done willfully, then complaining about a ticket is just plain and simply not taking personal responsibility....i can see and respect your point of view, but that will not change mine...if someone willfully breaks the law then they should be prepared to pay the fine...ever notice how everyone automatically jam the brakes when they see a trooper on the interstate? it is because they *know* they are breaking the law... j

Actually I consider it to be FAR safer to be in FRONT of these people I under no condition want to be behind them if I can help it.

These kind of people are an accident waiting to happen and I want to be well ahead of whatever or whenever they smack something and cause a wreck. if I am in front of it I will not be involved in it.

if I am behind such a dolt I may get STUCK in an undesirable or even life threatening situation.

I can ESPECIALLY understand this for motorcycle drivers.

Chris Taylor

"Joey Tribiani> i don't see anyone being "suckered" into a ticket in your above

Most states have laws in effect that basically say safety overrides law.

this is why you are allowed to "run a red light" for example if instructed to do so by an officer etc..

You are saying that he should COMPOUND his danger from not only that car but possibly many other cars just to keep from going over the speed limit by a few mph.

the point is he is not breaking the law if what he is doing is logical and safe and saves lives etc..

that is why an officer would NOT pull him over because the officer can SEE that he is not breaking the law.

a traffic camera can not make this distinction.

Chris Taylor

side-visual-contact, I have

is the only safe

contact with the

I do not run lights. lets get that out of the way.

as for a precious few seconds. although I would never justify it with this you are wrong here as well.

My driving time to work each day varies by as much as 16 minutes (yes I have timed it) what causes this variation. how many lights I get as red or green.

on 4 occassions I got green at all but one light. on all of those occassions I averagve 16 minutes SHORTER time to work.

Now I leave for work with an extra 15-20 minutes time padded in so this is no big deal to me but I have been working here for 4+ years.

6 trips each way that is potentially up to 1.5 hours per week. times 52 weeks. that is roughly 76 hours per year or 300+ hours since I started.

also consider that the first 2 years I used street road (later found a new better way) that has 4 times the number of lights (even more now)

in 4 years that means that the randomness of lights could in theory consume

12 DAYS of my life !!!

lets assume I average lucky/not luck 50% of the time that is 6 days of my LIFE !!

can you say WOW. now I know why people get pissed that Quickie greens (their are some lights where literally the light turns green and then Yellow before you had finished going through the intersection.

their is even one intersection where the yellow was longer than the green and the yellow was 3 or 4 seconds !! (they finally fixed that after enough people got pissed I guess)

they tend to put smart lights where you need dumb lights and vice versa etc..

Now I do not run red lights and in fact will go out of the way to prefer stopping at the yellow rather than risk being in the intersection when its yellow/red NOT for tickets. never got one and no cameras that I am aware of in my area. but it is a matter of life and death. I have seen plenty of people blow through intersection that I do not want to be IN IT when they do it if I can help it.

if this means stopping at a yellow that I could easily (and legally) get through before it goes red so be it. better than dying or having my thing wrecked in the least.

but I can not understand by people get so mad and take risks that as running lights. does not justify it but it does make sense now why they do it.

now imagine a person who does this commute FIVE times a week. I only do 3 since I work 12 hour shifts.

Chris Taylor

I disagree. its called shit happens to.

you could be a safe distance if all the conditions were prime for it.

ie you were looking at the car saw his lights and proceeded to make a max effeciency stop.

but what if at that MOMENT that he decides to slam on the brakes you were checking your side mirrors or you were hey what do you know looking at the traffic light to see if you needed to slow down or stop.

you just might then eat up your "safe distance" since you do not yet know he slammed on his brakes in a maneuver that he did not or should not have needed to perform.

their are exceptions to everything and this scenario CREATES exceptions that should never have existed INCREASING the danger.

I like to keep a significant distance between me and the car in front of me. its a VERY tight balance. I usually end up being much closer that I want to be (4-7 car lengths)

you see I have to stay that close just to get THAT much distance sometimes. if I try to get my 4-7 cars lenghts others see that an an invitation to "fill in my buffer" I slow down and more fill in. pretty soon I am moving at

10mph (you get the idea)

I have found that I can work a balance. close enough to disuade people from filling in far enough hopefully to be able to avoid a problem if I need to.

you may say well that is their problem for being agressive and unsafe. well that is not relevant. its BECOMES my problem if it puts me in danger.

that is why I like driving at night. easy to keep a LARGE buffer between cars since their are not as many and they are not as agressive (no jockying)

their are some roads I am literally on edge terrified to drive on since they are roads just waiting for a major pile up.

Chris Taylor