Re: autobahn (somewhat OT)

Sounds more equal if the intent is to punish equally, then a $500 fine means nothing to a millionaire and can be fiscally devestating to someone on minimum wage.

--Dan E

Man, I love that system! It gives me some mean satisfaction that the motherf***r driving his brand new Porsche just like the road was his/hers, is going to get a ticket proportional to the size of his wonderful showing off wallet. Thats very fair, rich people don't pay the same taxes as poor do, right? (in theory) then why not traffic fines?

Ant

Olli Lammi wrote:

.....................If I were a rich European, I'd move the hell away from this nonsense to a country where everyone is equal under the law.

God Bless America

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:41:22 GMT, "Tim Rogers" left Mt Vesuvius in a state of jealous awe as he began spewing from the mouth thusly:

Yep. Just my opinion, but when they tax and fine somebody more ONLY because that person makes more money, it's not a very good incentive for people to strive to make more money. Not all, but some people who are doing ok financially grew up poor and make good money because they busted their poor broke @ss to educate themselves and worked their way through school to get where they are today because they realized that it takes hard work and sacrifice to get ahead. When someone says that a "rich" person should not pay the same fine for the same crime as a "poor" person because they already pay more taxes percentage-wise than a poor person, that just kinda doesn't sit right with me. Where does it end? Should a "rich" person pay more for their groceries, doctor bills, etc, etc, than a "poor" person? If you equalize everything like that then you're starting to get too close to the definition of socialism for my tastes. Again, I'm only speaking my own opinon for myself, although I suspect others may share my opinion. Of course... if I find out that a certain someone with initials C.T. shares this opinion then I may just change my own opinion. ;-)

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

So, Anthony, does this only apply in your mind, to traffic violatins or does your class envy go deeper,.................say to what size their house is or how much land they own?

Talk about envy........................man!Think about what you said Ant...................it makes no real sense. Nothing but major envy..................I ( among others obviously) have a hard time seeing it any other way.

I rather think the best bumper sticker in the world says it all...............seen on the back of a rather beach bum looking Beetle back in the mid Eighties, right next to the surfer sticker that said " If It Swells, Ride It "

"I'd Rather Be Rich, than Well Hung"

................................now that's acceptable envy. ( and I don't think they mean with a rope.)

I am not real fond of anyone driving the way you speak of and would be ok with all of them, Porsche or Pinto, to be fined very equally....................and maybe the fine should be a sentenceof time spent, so that each spends the same amount of TIME, not money. That would have a huge impact on either of the financial groups................and both would be likely to not really need the frustration and likely employment penalties that go with it. nothing like being fired cause you can't make it to work for a traffic violation........................huh?

Yup,.................once again the holes in this theory are pretty big...................like how's that gonna have any impact on the guy who's self employed, or whos the boss?

Oh,....................They'd feel it too..................they probably would feel it as bad or worse than the others.

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

Buying groceries and breaking the law *still* has a different sound in my ears. Fortunately.

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:48:23 +0300, "Olli Lammi" left Mt Vesuvius in a state of jealous awe as he began spewing from the mouth thusly:

Can you explain to me how it is that you feel someone with more money DESERVES to have to pay a higher fine than someone who has less money for the same crime? What if the person who commits the crime doesn't have a job and is living on the streets? Should they just be let go with no fine at all? The argument that someone who has less money should be punished less than someone with more money just absolutely doesn't make any sense to me. If they both did the same crime it seems like they should pay the same fine. What if they both commit murder and are sentenced to prison? Should the poor person serve a term half as long as the other guy if he makes half as much money? What if Bill Gates is caught speeding? Should he be executed? The "rich pays more, poor pays less" argument/idea just doesn't hold water with me at all. Again, just my opinion that I'm entitled to like everyone else is entitled to theirs. My comments in no way reflect blah blah blah standard disclaimer, etc, etc.

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

I will try to explain the concept of dayfines the way I understand them. When you commit a crime you have to make it right by giving something to the community (a fine). A fair way to do that is to give a part of your time to the community. If you have committed a crime that is worth 10 dayfines, that means that you have to give ten days of work for the community. The question is what you should do during these ten days. It is good for the community if you do something that you are good at. It is reasonable to believe that you're good at what you normally do. Therefore the community let you do what you normally do, but what you get paid during these ten days goes to the community.

If you stretch the argument that everyone should pay the same amount for the same crime a little bit, you could also say that the normal prison punishment is unfair. One year in prison will mean that a high incomer will loose a lot of money, but a person with low income will only loose a small amount.

/Sven

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:41:01 +0200, Sven Agardh left Mt Vesuvius in a state of jealous awe as he began spewing from the mouth thusly:

So what if you normally do nothing? You pay nothing? What if you're a lazy slob and have a part time job flipping burgers 10 hours a week to make just enough money to pay your rent and buy food and beer? You have to pay less than the guy who works 12 hour days normally busting his butt because he's trying to get ahead? I'm glad you guys agree with that system, but I just can't. Thank God I live where I do, because that means I don't have to agree with that system. God Bless America! My opinion, blah blah, doesn't reflect anyone's opionion but my own, I speak for myself only, etc, etc, standard disclaimer.

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

There's a minimum.

The idea is that if a burger flipping young Travis gets a 200 dollar fine, it hurts him economically. But if the CEO of say, Motorola gets a

Jan

"Scott H." wrote in news:bhtal1$3045u$ snipped-for-privacy@ID-153506.news.uni-berlin.de:

Come and listen to a story about a man named Jed A poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed, Then one day he was shootin' at some food, And up through the ground came a-bubblin' crude...

...Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea.

I don't remember that show in anything *but* black and white. I watched it of course because of that truck Jethro drove...1921 Model T. I was much too young to be enraptured by Elli Mae ;-)

....................This is a good example of why us silly Americans don't understand you wacky foreigners. You want effective deterence at all cost even if it means forgetting about the principle of equality of the individual in a democratic society. Being equal in the eyes of the law is fundamental to what it means to be an American. Sure, you may stamp out lawlessness with your unfair rules but you've also undermined the basic idea of democracy and made it so that successful individuals become tempted to simply vote with their feet and get the hell out. It's no accident that many wealthy people from around the world end up living here in the good old USA. And the burger flippers seem to like it here too!

You can't put up static monetary fine for a crime that would equally affect everyones budget. Too low fine has no preventive effect on people who have a lot of money. Too high static fine would kill the poor people. Is equality measurable only as the actual total amount of money in the fine ticket or is it measurable on the effect it has compared to the subject of the fine.

There is a minimum day fine here (6 euros). If someone has no money to pay for the fine, he/she must serve the fine as days being arrested or community service.

Prison is different from a money fine. There you are removed your freedom for a given time. Two prisoners are equal regardless of the amount of money they have waiting in the normal life for the end of their sentence.

Bill Gates executed... (a warm feeling rushed through my body promptly and I found myself smiling) No. Death sentence and traffic fines are in somewhat different ballpark.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:54:11 +0300, "Olli Lammi" left Mt Vesuvius in a state of jealous awe as he began spewing from the mouth thusly:

We just don't agree on this and there's nothing wrong with a friendly disagreement as far as I'm concerned. I don't follow your line of thinking and you don't follow mine. It would be a boring world if everyone thought alike. In this case we're both lucky since we're both part of the system that we agree with. :-)

-- Travis (Shaggie) '63 VW Camo Baja...

Watch out. We have both been brainwashed. They're coming to get me.

Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:41:01 +0200, Sven Agardh

If you are a high incomer, do you get to be the "Husband" in your new enviorment?

Mike

Let me twist some more.....................

Say you were rich,..............FILTHY RICH...............and have no reason to work anymore.

Is it ok, since you no longer have any income at all you should get away without paying.................if we base it on INCOME this is what would feasibly happen eventually.

( this is also just theory, but it would definitely apply in the same fashion as the fine the guy with the biggest income point of view )

Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply MUADIB®

You are not seeing it clearly. Our way IS more equal than yours, ANYONE who gets a speeding ticket, gets a fine that hurts. Think about it. It is much more equal, than your system where for example me, with my measly, slightly over average salary could easily afford to have a new hobby: speeding, and collecting tickets. My 2 last tickets cost me 500 dollars each. If it was say, 50 or 100, I probably would be speeding MUCH more often. So the system works.

And yes we do lose our license if we get fined for speeding three times in one year, not quite like your points system, but similar additional punitive system. And yes, I did lose mine this spring :P

Jan

I think I would prefer the US system.. I'd get to speed as much as I like without fear of consequences.. LOL (Compared to our system)

Jan