cv joint? whomp whomp whomp when under power

Hi, An '85 Golf 8v, auto transmission. 262,000 kilometres. When accelerating or pulling up a hill, I can feel and hear a slight whomp whomp whomp in the front, most likely from the area of the left front tire. I can feel the thumping through the steering wheel. The whomp whomp is at the same frequency as the revolution of the tires so I don't think it's an engine problem which would be at a much higher frequency. At low speeds the steering wheel will wobble a bit back and forth. Initially I thought it was a separated belt in the tire, but doing a tire rotation and switching the axles the tires sit on didn't change anything. Also the tire shop said the tires were not the problem. I've lifted the car and rotated the tires and the left front wheel bearing sounds fine and quiet, though I haven't entirely eliminated the wheel bearing as the culprit.

When easing off the throttle after accelerating or after pulling up a hill, the whomp whomp whomp goes away. The whomping is also absent when going down hill and using the engine as the brake.

If I slowly turn in a circle with the steering wheel turned fully to the left, I can hear a click. That is, there is one click per tire revolution instead of a click for every ball in the cv joint . I don't think the tire is rubbing on anything when the steering wheel is turned fully left or right.

So looking for some thoughts? Left outer CV joint? Wheel bearing?

My other thought is the tranny. Since the time of the last transmission service a couple of years ago I've noticed the tranny fluid is way over the full mark. Could an overfull tranny be causing some backlash in the torque converter? However, the whomping noise is more recent than the tranny service so probably unrelated to the tranny.

Thanks in advance for any diagnostic tips or confirmation it's the CV joint.

-Tony

Reply to
bajords9
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Likely as you suggest, CV joint(s) going.

But that should be diagnosed with the vehicle on a lift and both axles free. Given the age of the vehicle and the mileage, you might check both axles.

In any case, don't drive anywhere 'at speed' until you get a proper diagnosis. If you lose a joint you won't go, or possibly worse.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
pfjw

Thanks Peter, I had the front end on jack stands and was rotating the left then right wheels while having the steering wheel cranked to the locks one side then the other. The bearings were silent and there was no clicking noise. I can only hear the click when turning a tight circle with some power applied. Again it's not click click click, but click.....................................then click on the next 360 deg of tire rotation, which I initially thought was something with the tire.

Also, would a failing cv joint cause wobble in the steering wheel?

I have 20,000 km on the right outer cv joint and 10,000 km on the left outer. My understanding is the inner cv joints are un-affected by the position of the steering wheel? The inner cv joints are original.

thanks.

-Tony

Reply to
Tony49122

Well.... Hmmmm....

Thump that you can feel at the wheel. So. Please forgive some silly questions as I expect all the 'right' answers.

a) The tires are balanced? b) Haven't hit any pot-holes recently or bent a rim/wheel? c) Wheel bearings (NOT CV joints) are all present, correct and intact? d) Do the axles have the correct 'play' (in/out)?

Sometimes when they spin free of load there is not enough load on them to show the 'flat' spot.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Reply to
pfjw

CV joints are probably the problem. Might be an inner one with dried or contaminated grease since that is the one that usually gets neglected. Might be a bent hub but the wheels should wobble when rotated. It is easier to see if the wheel is spinning fast. Might be a defective brake rotor causing the brake pad to jump when it hits a low/high spot. It should be felt when rotating the wheel.

SO my vote is the inner CV joint. Maybe you can take off that half-axle (driveshaft) and examine it more closely. If not the left side then check the right side too!

JMHO which is free and worth every cent! lol

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

Hi Peter, Good questions. a) It's been a while since I've had the tires balanced, but the tire wear suggests they are okay. b) No recollection of hitting any major pot holes or protruding man holes. c) I'm not so sure the state of the wheel bearings. I've lifted the front end and hand-spun the wheels. All sounds normal, but there was no load on the bearings. Shaking the tire/wheel doesn't reveal any thing lose. d) Axle nuts torqued to 195 ft.lbs. I did the outer CV joints so torqued the nuts myself.

I have a wheel bearing on the shelf and can put that on (have never done it, but have recently bought a 12 ton press that's dying to be used), but I'm not entirely sure that's what is the problem. I don't mind replacing parts to rule out problems. The shop would probably do the same at higher cost to me.

Reply to
Tony49122

Hi Dave, Hmm, both inner cv joints are original with 262,000 km on them. I did clean and regrease the left inner one when I replaced the left outer. And replaced the boot. That was about 20,000 km ago.

Regarding the brake rotor, the brake pedal doesn't oscillate so I think I can eliminate the rotor. For wobble, I've had my wife drive at me while I watched for up and down out-of-round in the tire and for wobble in the wheel and tire tread. Nothing obvious.

I'll check out prices on a rebuilt left side half shafts versus a new inner cv. If not too different, I'll try a half shaft to eliminate both the outer and inner cv joints at the same time.

-Tony

thanks.

Reply to
Tony49122

To double check to see if the front wheel bearing is bad I usually take off the brakes and remove the CV Joint out of the hub so I can spin the hub freely by hand. Then I can both listen to it AND feel it as I rotate it.

I would not think that the front wheel bearing would create a whomp noise though, but at least you can also try moving your CV Joints around to see if they bind. ;-)

BTW I prefer to TEST parts before ordering new parts, but I am a CB. ;-)

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

Check the rims for dents. I once ran over a concrete block and had a small dent on the inner side of the left rim which caused also a wobble on the steering wheel.

SFC

"T> CV joints are probably the problem. Might be an inner one with dried or

Hi Dave, Hmm, both inner cv joints are original with 262,000 km on them. I did clean and regrease the left inner one when I replaced the left outer. And replaced the boot. That was about 20,000 km ago.

Regarding the brake rotor, the brake pedal doesn't oscillate so I think I can eliminate the rotor. For wobble, I've had my wife drive at me while I watched for up and down out-of-round in the tire and for wobble in the wheel and tire tread. Nothing obvious.

I'll check out prices on a rebuilt left side half shafts versus a new inner cv. If not too different, I'll try a half shaft to eliminate both the outer and inner cv joints at the same time.

-Tony

thanks.

Reply to
SFC

If replacing your front wheel bearings is like on my '97 Jetta, you don't need to take your steering knuckle off of the car to press the bearing if you borrow a press system from your local Advance Auto or other shop. It's like a Greenlee Punch, if you're familiar with that. Basically a threaded rod and various sized punches to push the bearing out and back in. Saves a lot of work, possible damage to joints and no alignment needed. I got mine from German Auto Parts with a deposit and freight charge but the local shops have them now.

Hi Peter, Good questions. a) It's been a while since I've had the tires balanced, but the tire wear suggests they are okay. b) No recollection of hitting any major pot holes or protruding man holes. c) I'm not so sure the state of the wheel bearings. I've lifted the front end and hand-spun the wheels. All sounds normal, but there was no load on the bearings. Shaking the tire/wheel doesn't reveal any thing lose. d) Axle nuts torqued to 195 ft.lbs. I did the outer CV joints so torqued the nuts myself.

I have a wheel bearing on the shelf and can put that on (have never done it, but have recently bought a 12 ton press that's dying to be used), but I'm not entirely sure that's what is the problem. I don't mind replacing parts to rule out problems. The shop would probably do the same at higher cost to me.

Reply to
631grant

Check Rock Auto for prices on complete half shafts. I think you'll be surprised.

Hi Dave, Hmm, both inner cv joints are original with 262,000 km on them. I did clean and regrease the left inner one when I replaced the left outer. And replaced the boot. That was about 20,000 km ago.

Regarding the brake rotor, the brake pedal doesn't oscillate so I think I can eliminate the rotor. For wobble, I've had my wife drive at me while I watched for up and down out-of-round in the tire and for wobble in the wheel and tire tread. Nothing obvious.

I'll check out prices on a rebuilt left side half shafts versus a new inner cv. If not too different, I'll try a half shaft to eliminate both the outer and inner cv joints at the same time.

-Tony

thanks.

Reply to
631grant

Hi, I had a chance to look at the car again today and had it up on jackstands. With steering wheel turned fully left or right and rotating the tires, there was no noise. No clicking. But then, there was no torque on the CV joints. On the driver side, one of the brake pads is rubbing periodically, on every rotation. I noticed that the pads on the driver side wear faster than the passenger, so maybe a sticking caliper.

Grabbing the driver side wtire at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock and rocking the tire, there is the slightest of movement. However, when grabbed at 3 and 9 o'clock, there is no movement. On passenger side, there is no movement when the tire is grabbed at any position. The movement on the driver side is small. I put a screwdriver against the shock assesmbly and rested the screwdriver handle on top of the tire to observe the amount of back and forth movement. I estimate the side to side movement at the top of the tire was about 0.5 to 1 mm. More like I could feel the movement but couldn't really see it. So I'm back to thinking it's wheel bearing...???

I returned the press and got a bearing puller similar to this one

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But I discovered I can't pull the hub off with it. Othersdescribe an ABS adapter for pulling the hub like this (see step #17)
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Maybe I can get a shortlength of steel pipe to sit overv/around the hub (I don't have ABS)and rest on the steering knuckle. The bearing puller plate would reston the pipe and the hub would pull and slide into the length of pipe.Would this work?

Alternatively, are people using a slide hammer to remove the hub from the knuckle? It's several hundred dollars investment in tools, but I figure it'll pay for itself with a couple of DIY jobs and not having to bring the car to a shop and my down time.

So wondering how I get the hub off. Thanks. This is all new territory for me.

Reply to
Tony49122

Been doing some more research. I searched on google for a hub puller and came across tools like an OTC 7208A hub puller

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I don't think this will work on a Golf...nothing to push on withthe central threaded bolt. However the solution may be simpler, Ifound this excellent description
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and the technique uses a couple of long bolts threaded into the holes where the wheel lug bolts normally go, and pressure is applied to the knuckle and the hub should come out. Am I on the right track?

Reply to
bajords9

JMHO but I would not want to use that OTC 7208A hub puller against the CV Joint (driveshaft) or even with a slide hammer. You can try it with a GOOD slide hammer and let us know if it works easily. ;-) BTW Getting the hub out of the wheel bearing is the hardest part of the job along with getting the outer race of the wheel bearing off of the hub! ;-) I have broken a slide hammer trying to get the hub out, but it was not a professional slide hammer. PLEASE someone correct me if I am wrong about using the OTC hub puller against the driveshaft and I will buy one instantly! lol

I can use a baby sledge hammer, or my impact hammer, with adapters/sockets to get them out. WEAR HAND AND GOOD EYE PROTECTION!! Ear protection is nice to use too! ;-)

Maybe those long bolts will work for you. They might and that would be a very inexpensive option for you. With vehicles equipped with Antilock Brake Systems, I sometimes find hubs with the ABS tone rings on them and IIRC the long bolts does not work on those hubs. :-(

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

I have used some bolts on my 84 Rabbit to press the hub out of the hub. Then I used a 1" bolt, some steel plates, some lengths and diameters of pipe to make a press. Also about 2 foot of pipe on a 3/4" ratchet for the pressing out and in of the bearings.

I suppose you have seen enough articles with your google search to get the concept.

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JMHO but I would not want to use that OTC 7208A hub puller against the CV

Reply to
Jim Behning

That is a perfect link to show the ABS tone ring on the back of the hub. ;-) I think you can now imagine why the long bolts might not work on these hubs to pull them off.

I was contemplating purchasing that Schley Products 63500 VW bearing puller tool and probably will one day. I use that Harbor Freight tool and it does what yours does. But whatever works! lol

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

An update. I had no luck finding the Schley C-shaped tool here in Western Canada for pressing out the hub from the back. Also I couldn't find any bolts longer than my existing wheel bolts for working the hub out. After several more evenings of reading and watching youtube videos on how to do a bearing job, it seems appropriate to use a slide hammer. I ended up investing in a hammer kit figuring I could use it on the next car which likely would have ABS. The kit comes with assorted screw type pullers in addition to the slide hammer and arched bracket that attaches to the hub. There was a great video (which I can't find again!) by a European tool manufacturer demonstrating their air driven tool for pressing out/in the drive shaft and bearings. In that video, they used a slide hammer to remove the hub with 3 blows. Now I'm having second thoughts on the slide hammer as I saw another video where the backyard mechanic tightened a bearing splitter between the hub and knuckle and just used the regular wheel bolts to work the hub off. The bearing splitter gave a nice surface for pushing against with all 4 wheel bolts. That was a nice, low impact approach. I'm aiming to change the bearing this weekend, will update again.

I checked prices on alternatives. VW dealership: $390 for bearing job

  • 0 alignment + taxes + shop fees (rags, consumables) =3D about 0. Take knuckle off myself and bring to a shop: to press out/ in + 0 for alignment =3D about 0. I think I'll invest in the tools and lean to do it myself.
Reply to
Tony49122

You do not find tools like that locally. You find them on the internet from a reputable vendor and you order. Or you get out your metal bandsaw and cut of pipe to make your own tool. I order parts and tools often enough as no parts house has the tools or quality parts I want.

Buy bolt extenders. I dig through my scrap metal pile. find some 1/8" and 1/4" plate to shim out contact points to pess against.

I think my bearing splitter has some half inch threaded bolt holes that I made use of. It has been 6-7 years since the last time I did wheel bearings.

Reply to
Jim Behning

Hi Jim, Thanks, wish I had a bone yard for parts and bits and pieces. I generally have to buy even my scrap, sad eh? I considered making my own hub adapter buying the 6" length of pipe from a metal fabricator and have them cut a piece of plate for a cross piece and drill a hole. I checked on-line mail order, but the places either don't ship to Canada or they charge exorbitant shipping costs.It's like we're a foreign country or something (joking), plus there are the customs fees and taxes. Funny the auto tool places don't carry things like the ABS adapter to go along with the front wheel bearing kit. You'd think there would be a demand locally.

So pressing against the bearing splitter is a good way to go? I haven't used the slide hammer kit, maybe I can return it (same place I returned the press). Hah.

Reply to
bajords9

Sorry folks, not paying attention to which computer I'm using to monitor the discussion. Posts from bajords9 and tony49122 are mine.

-Tony

Reply to
bajords9

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