cv joint? whomp whomp whomp when under power

An update. I had no luck finding the Schley C-shaped tool here in Western Canada for pressing out the hub from the back. Also I couldn't find any bolts longer than my existing wheel bolts for working the hub out. After several more evenings of reading and watching youtube videos on how to do a bearing job, it seems appropriate to use a slide hammer. I ended up investing in a hammer kit figuring I could use it on the next car which likely would have ABS. The kit comes with assorted screw type pullers in addition to the slide hammer and arched bracket that attaches to the hub. There was a great video (which I can't find again!) by a European tool manufacturer demonstrating their air driven tool for pressing out/in the drive shaft and bearings. In that video, they used a slide hammer to remove the hub with 3 blows. Now I'm having second thoughts on the slide hammer as I saw another video where the backyard mechanic tightened a bearing splitter between the hub and knuckle and just used the regular wheel bolts to work the hub off. The bearing splitter gave a nice surface for pushing against with all 4 wheel bolts. That was a nice, low impact approach. I'm aiming to change the bearing this weekend, will update again.

I take off the whole knuckle and hammer out the hub with a few blows. I press out the outer bearing ring with a piece of pipe in a vice. I then use the old bearing outer ring to press in the new one. The only tricky thing is to support the inner ring while pressing in the center, I use another pipe for that also. So all I use are some pieces of pipe of various dimensions, the old bearing and a vice.

SFC

Reply to
SFC
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WARNING WILL ROBINSON.....................Do you have ABS brakes on this VW? Tone ring will cause you to remove it only certain ways!!!

Yes the removal of the hub and the race that usually gets stuck onto it are the problems. YES you can beat it out of the wheel bearing!

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be able to handle 99% of the job.And your bearing splitter should handle that last 1% of allowing you to pull that race off.

IF you get the hub out of the wheel bearing then a less expensive tool kit like ebay item # 250400102826 will work like the Hub Tamer kit. ;-)

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

I did the deed today. The job went relatively smoothly. Things I learned are below. But first, unfortunately the new bearing and new hub didn't correct the whomp whomp sounds when under load nor the wobble in the steering wheel. I'm pretty disappointed. On the test drive I drove around in tight circles forwards and backwards with the steering wheel at one lock or the other. No clicking noises so I'm putting the cv joints low on the culprit list. I've noticed the inside driver side brake pads are wearing faster than the passenger side, particularly the driver inside pad. My next test is to put in some old rotors to see if the current driver side one is warped. But there is no pulsing on the brake pedal when braking. My other thought is something in the auto tranny but getting in there is beyond my abilities.

Anyways, lessons learned and comments. I won't repeat describing the detailed steps as they are well documented elsewhere including how-to videos on youtube.

  1. To free the drive axle, some people advise to remove the 3 bolts on the ball joint bracket on the lower arm. I find disconnecting the horizontal bolt through the ball joint and pushing the arm down to free the stud is easier and faster. Any downsides to this? Also the bearing kit includes a new ball joint bolt and lock nut.
  2. Slide hammer worked well and fast. I started with baby blows to get the feel. It took about 10 blows to pop the hub out.The part that mounts to the hub where you screw in the slide hammer was a bit too large, the smallest hole spacing barely fit the VW hub and the wheel bolts wouldn't tighten down. Next time I'll get some regular bolts without the spherical part that's on the wheel bolts. The slide hammer kit is like this one
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    and the mount I'm talking about is the item on the far right.
  3. I broke a good screwdriver getting the old snap rings out. Advice: get some large and hefty snap ring pliers to fit the snap rings to make the job easier. The snap ring is bigger and stiffer than others you'd find on the car.
  4. The old race was really stuck on the hub. None of the bearing pullers I had would get enough purchase to budge the race. The best I could do was budge it with a cold chisel and hammer, then the chisel bottomed out in the 2 notches and I couldn't move it anymore. I don't have a grinder or dremel to do that trick nor did I have a bearing breaker.I ended up running out to buy a new hub.
  5. Removing the old bearing went smoothly. Advice: make sure you have a socket that fits the bolt on the hub remover and a wrench that fits the long nut on the back. They are fairly large size and not in the range of sizes you'd use normally on the car. On my kit
    formatting link
    bolt takes a 38 mm socket and the nut takes a 36 mm wrench.
  6. Pressing in the new bearing went smoothly, No surprises.
  7. Pressing in the hub, using the old race for size, I picked a backing disk for the hub tool that would press on the inner race. But I forgot to account for the snap ring in the hub. So when I pressed in the hub, the backing disk was pressing on the snap ring in the hub and not the inner race. I think in pressing in the hub, I pressed out the inner race by the thickness of the snap ring. I picked a smaller diam. disk to fit inside the snap ring and seated the hub the rest of the way. Dang, I wonder if I ruined the bearing? I'll know in a few weeks or months.
  8. The rest of the assembly went smoothly: tighten ball joint nut, install rotor, pads, and caliper. Attach wheel. Lower car and tighten up the wheel bolts and axle nut and test drive.

The new bearing removed the previous wobble when I rocked the tire by grabbing it at 12 and 6 o'clock, so I corrected something but the main complaint still persists.

Thanks for making your way through these long posts.

Reply to
Tony49122

Well congrats and thanks for letting us know what you had to do and how you did it. I might have to try a good heavy slide hammer next time. ;-) I usually feel how the hub rotates after reassembly. It needs to rotate very smoothly and quietly.

So the whomp noise is still in the front? Did you switch the front tires to the rear? The inner CV Joints might cause issues like yours. You might want to check them out.

"T I did the deed today. The job went relatively smoothly. Things I learned are below. But first, unfortunately the new bearing and new hub didn't correct the whomp whomp sounds when under load nor the wobble in the steering wheel. I'm pretty disappointed. On the test drive I drove around in tight circles forwards and backwards with the steering wheel at one lock or the other. No clicking noises so I'm putting the cv joints low on the culprit list. I've noticed the inside driver side brake pads are wearing faster than the passenger side, particularly the driver inside pad. My next test is to put in some old rotors to see if the current driver side one is warped. But there is no pulsing on the brake pedal when braking. My other thought is something in the auto tranny but getting in there is beyond my abilities.

Anyways, lessons learned and comments. I won't repeat describing the detailed steps as they are well documented elsewhere including how-to videos on youtube.

  1. To free the drive axle, some people advise to remove the 3 bolts on the ball joint bracket on the lower arm. I find disconnecting the horizontal bolt through the ball joint and pushing the arm down to free the stud is easier and faster. Any downsides to this? Also the bearing kit includes a new ball joint bolt and lock nut.

  1. Slide hammer worked well and fast. I started with baby blows to get the feel. It took about 10 blows to pop the hub out.The part that mounts to the hub where you screw in the slide hammer was a bit too large, the smallest hole spacing barely fit the VW hub and the wheel bolts wouldn't tighten down. Next time I'll get some regular bolts without the spherical part that's on the wheel bolts. The slide hammer kit is like this one
    formatting link
    the mount I'm talking about is the item on the far right.

  1. I broke a good screwdriver getting the old snap rings out. Advice: get some large and hefty snap ring pliers to fit the snap rings to make the job easier. The snap ring is bigger and stiffer than others you'd find on the car.

  1. The old race was really stuck on the hub. None of the bearing pullers I had would get enough purchase to budge the race. The best I could do was budge it with a cold chisel and hammer, then the chisel bottomed out in the 2 notches and I couldn't move it anymore. I don't have a grinder or dremel to do that trick nor did I have a bearing breaker.I ended up running out to buy a new hub.

  2. Removing the old bearing went smoothly. Advice: make sure you have a socket that fits the bolt on the hub remover and a wrench that fits the long nut on the back. They are fairly large size and not in the range of sizes you'd use normally on the car. On my kit
    formatting link
    bolt takes a 38 mm socket and the nut takes a 36 mm wrench.
  3. Pressing in the new bearing went smoothly, No surprises.

  1. Pressing in the hub, using the old race for size, I picked a backing disk for the hub tool that would press on the inner race. But I forgot to account for the snap ring in the hub. So when I pressed in the hub, the backing disk was pressing on the snap ring in the hub and not the inner race. I think in pressing in the hub, I pressed out the inner race by the thickness of the snap ring. I picked a smaller diam. disk to fit inside the snap ring and seated the hub the rest of the way. Dang, I wonder if I ruined the bearing? I'll know in a few weeks or months.

  2. The rest of the assembly went smoothly: tighten ball joint nut, install rotor, pads, and caliper. Attach wheel. Lower car and tighten up the wheel bolts and axle nut and test drive.

The new bearing removed the previous wobble when I rocked the tire by grabbing it at 12 and 6 o'clock, so I corrected something but the main complaint still persists.

Thanks for making your way through these long posts.

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

Reply to
Jim Behning

Hi Dave and Jim, The new bearing spins quietly and smoothly. Nice, and no axial play when rocking the tire.

Re: tires, I've rotated the tires and the whomping sound and sensation doesn't change. I brought the car back to Kal Tire and they took it on a road test. The fellow said the tires were okay, no separated belts or other defects, and the problem is elsewhere, something mechanical. So unlikely all 4 tires have the same defect. The whomping is there whether the tires are cold or warm.

I have to bring the car in for the annual AirCare test as a requirement to renew the insurance. The car goes on a dynanmo rig with sensors stuck in the exhaust pipe. From the waiting room, I'm about 5 feet from the left front wheel, so will look for any out of round or wobble condition. I looked last year but nothing was obvious.

Looks like I'll change out the left inner CV joint. That was one I had a problem with repacking and getting the balls and cage back in. I was one cog out and the joint wouldn't rotate. I didn't have any load on the joint, it was still in the assembly processes. I can't imagine my hand pressure trying to turn it damaged anything then?

Will update again when I get the left inner CV joint changed out. It's the original with 262,000 kilometres on it. Dang, things don't last these days eh? :)

It may seem expensive to replace parts on a trial and error basis, but I find that's what the dealership does anyways. I had a stalling problem on this '85 Golf and the dealer changed out all 4 injectors, main and transfer fuel pump, fuel filter and other bits and pieces. Cost $1,200. But that didn't help at all. I finally tracked it down to the Hall sender in the distributor. So I'd rather do the trial and error parts change-out on my own labour with parts at 1/3 the cost.

PS. Doing some more searching, this looks like the tool for removing the bearing race from the hub:

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-cheers

Jim Behn>Good job on the bearing. I like to spin those tires to make sure they

Reply to
Tony49122

Sounds like you did a great job then if it spins quietly and smoothly. Yes that tool should work to take the race off of the hub. ;-)

So did you have this noise before you disassembled the CV Joints? Are all of the inner CV Joint bolts tight? Could one of the driveshafts be slightly bent? Maybe a bad brake disc. I have seen many with rust at the outer and inner rings that could cause a problem. Also brake backing plates that cause noises as the discs touch them.

I sometimes place vehicles on jack stands and watch/listen to things as they rotate.

Re: tires, I've rotated the tires and the whomping sound and sensation doesn't change. I brought the car back to Kal Tire and they took it on a road test. The fellow said the tires were okay, no separated belts or other defects, and the problem is elsewhere, something mechanical. So unlikely all 4 tires have the same defect. The whomping is there whether the tires are cold or warm.

I have to bring the car in for the annual AirCare test as a requirement to renew the insurance. The car goes on a dynanmo rig with sensors stuck in the exhaust pipe. From the waiting room, I'm about 5 feet from the left front wheel, so will look for any out of round or wobble condition. I looked last year but nothing was obvious.

Looks like I'll change out the left inner CV joint. That was one I had a problem with repacking and getting the balls and cage back in. I was one cog out and the joint wouldn't rotate. I didn't have any load on the joint, it was still in the assembly processes. I can't imagine my hand pressure trying to turn it damaged anything then?

Will update again when I get the left inner CV joint changed out. It's the original with 262,000 kilometres on it. Dang, things don't last these days eh? :)

It may seem expensive to replace parts on a trial and error basis, but I find that's what the dealership does anyways. I had a stalling problem on this '85 Golf and the dealer changed out all 4 injectors, main and transfer fuel pump, fuel filter and other bits and pieces. Cost $1,200. But that didn't help at all. I finally tracked it down to the Hall sender in the distributor. So I'd rather do the trial and error parts change-out on my own labour with parts at 1/3 the cost.

PS. Doing some more searching, this looks like the tool for removing the bearing race from the hub:

formatting link

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

Hi Dave, The whomp whomp and steering wheel wobble are more recent than the CV joint job. The CV joint repair resulted from a torn outer boot. I cleaned and re-lubricated the inner and outer CV joints while I was at it.

I'll check the inner CV bolts. As for the drive shafts, that's a possibility though I'm not sure how it might have gotten bent. And brakes are the other possibility. Going from least expensive to more expensive, I'll swap in some old rotors, one side at a time and see what happens. I'll update again.

thanks for following the saga,

-T> Sounds like you did a great job then if it spins quietly and smoothly.

Reply to
tonyw

Hi, I'm the original poster, still trying to diagnose the whomp whomp sound and vibration. I've decided to swap out the passenger side drive shaft. The inner CV is original (24 years, 264,000 km), the outer is a couple of years old but there's a clicking noise when I crank the steering wheel far left. It could be the plunge joint on the inner or premature failure of the outer. The price for a replacement shaft is less than for the inner + outer CV joints on their own.

Anyways I have the drive shaft out but for the life of me can't get the pins out to take the vibration damper off. The damper looks like 2 rubber halves with a split pin going through the overlapping halves, each pin at 180 deg to the other. But no amount of hammering with a drift pin is moving either split pin. LIkely well rusted in place.

It's getting late so I'm going to put the replacement shaft in without the damper. Is that okay? This is a city car and 95% of the time is on city streets doing max 40 mph/60km/h with occasional 55 mph/

80km/h on highway for maybe 5-10 minutes. So okay to run without the damper? Am I going to eventually destroy something?

thanks,

-Tony

Reply to
Tony49122

I have seen many shafts without that vibration damper and I don't think they come off easy!

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

That did it, the whomp whomp resolved. I don't know if it was the inner or the outer CV joint though. Car runs smoothly now. The steering wheel wobble is still there at low speeds, I'm suspecting brake rotors, will swap out on next brake job.

Reply to
Tony49122

I've never had a car with that vibration damper in place, and never had a problem. Well, I take that back, my '84 Scirocco ate some bearings in the transaxle and wouldn't keep oil in itself, but it was leaking out the driver's side output flange not the passenger side.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Probably inner CVJ.........look at the old driveshaft and test the joints!

something is bent/bad causing the steering wheel to wobble:

  1. wheel or tire............check both since the tire might have a bulge in it (slipped belt?) or flat spot
  2. wheel hub bent (I have machined one flat again on a car)

unlikely it is the brake rotor unless there is some debris between the hub and rotor or you are applying the brakes when the steering wheel wobbles. ;-) I find quite a few with debris in there! 8^o

JMHO

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

Hi Dave, I gave the 2 CV joints a quick swivel. The outer seemed fine, the inner seemed to bind but I may have swiveled to too great an angle. It was late so I didn't investigate further. But I'll look at it again. It'd be good to identify the culprit for future reference.

Re: debris, good thought, when I took the rotor off, I was surprised at how much rust there was chunking off the inside circumference of the depression in the back of the rotor that fits over the hub. Big long, flakes. I'll check again to make sure the rotor is on flat against the hub. Also I'll try a tire rotation again to see if I can isolate the wobble. Otherwise the car is running great again. Thanks for all your help.

Reply to
Tony49122

Mystery solved on whether it was the inner or outer CV joint.I had a chance this past weekend to inspect the inner and outer cv joint on the old shaft. The whomp whomp was caused by wear in one race on the inner cv joint (Dave you called that one right, right from the beginning). One ball bearing had worn a slight groove in the inner race. The other 5 races were fine. That would explain the whomp coming once every tire revolution. I salvaged the outer CV joint for reuse.

Reply to
Tony49122

Was that me? Glad you tore it down and let us know what you found! ;-)

Reply to
dave AKA vwdoc1

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