OT Reply I got from....

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On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 07:30:55 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom SPAM.net> wrote:

but remember, one can only teach if one actually possesses some knowledge. you pretty much miss out there.

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wrote:

Why?
Because we love you!
M- O- U- S- E
beekeep
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I figure this will go well into the weekend and the chuckle's will multiply. He maintains he's not reading anything I post, so I'll be held blameless. On the other hand you bunch of bigoted, c-bashing, assaulting jackals will be subject to all his wrath and indignation. <GBFG>
Roy
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beekeep
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I know it hurts to say that. But over time you will get use to it. Look at the Rabbit.<VBG>
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beekeep
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On Nov 4, 2:51 am, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (beekeep) wrote:

How many cups in an imperial gallon?
:-) Craig C.
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Bite Me!! Just cause I refuse to jump on your lopsided wagon...... <BG>
Denny
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Attack??????????? Now tell me he is not out of his friggin' head!!!!

Max, join the rest of us. There is absolutly no way to reason with him. you disagree with his position and it is a pesonal attck. Crazy....
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Personally, I have no problem with taxing denominations, fyi. I do have problems with those that think they can re-write the Bible and the basic interpretations TO SUIT THEMSELVES as you are doing and I AM INTOLERANT IN THAT RESPECT as a true, Bible believing Christian should be.
And what you and others are trying to do is convince me that a book that is 99.5% accurate when compared to the oldest copies is wrong.

http://www.carm.org/abortion/embryo.htm
http://www.carm.org/abortion/human_life.htm
http://www.carm.org/abortion/main_issue.htm
http://www.carm.org/abortion/with_parasite.htm
http://www.carm.org/abortion/unwanted.htm
And finally, when did I give you the right to question my beliefs, in effect, telling me they are wrong? One of us beleives the other wrong or there would be no "questioning". I merely gave the verses YOU asked for and you took it on yourself to tell me that they don't mean what I understand them to mean

So, you are on a vendetta for them. First, you aren't the one to decide for others if they want this treatment which is still so vague that no one really knows if it will do what is hoped. A Champion for an Unknown cause, Don Quiote.

Guess agian, Scott. "Fundy" believers are growing in numbers, not dropping. It's the simplicity: if it's not in the Bible, then it's not taught.

Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden by commiting the original Sin. Until that time, there was no death, no disease, not sin, no pain in childbirth.

Science, by definition, is knowledge, not the act of solving mysteries. That is experimentation.

Why do you limit God? He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Holy, Eternal, and Sovereign http://www.carm.org/doctrine/basicdoc.htm

Is it? It's the only version that is completely translated from the ancient manuscripts with all the words intact. The RSV is well known for it's liberties with interpretation of Scripture.

And who are you to do so? Who are you that I should listen to you over God's Word? You've become another one that has decided to tell me how I should live as a Christian. I will continue to be intolerant of those that seek to water down the Scriptures and turn Jesus into a mere mortal.
"I'd rather live assuming there is a God, only to die and find out there isn't, then to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find out there is." (Peter Barry)
--
Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23
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On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:50:18 -0700, "Budd Cochran" <mr-d150@preciscom SPAM.net> wrote:

i knew he was feeding off of the carm pages. you all should take the time to at least visit there once. it is a hoot.

uh..........when you posted them to a public ng. that should be pretty basic stuff, even for you.

so is the world population budd. for that matter, so are some other religions that are in direct contradiction to "fundy's".

ah yes, carm once again. this is good for chuckles.

max340, or scotty, i thought you knew that. who are you?

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You are correct. More to chuckle about. I wonder where he stands on the guy who headed up some group that was just outed by his boyfriend.
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The problem is, you assume I'm trying to interpret the Bible. I'm not. I'm saying that your references to the beginning of life are not that at all, but instead are references to the beginning of the human spirit. A BIG difference, because, as you pointed out, the Bible is not a scientific reference. As such, no scientific distinctions will be made within its covers.
But one step further, my point is not the abortion/beginning of life issue. Indeed, I am asking that the abortion issue be held as distinctly different from the stem cell issue. This is because, scientifically, they ARE different issues.

Well, I have to say this is amusing. You just wrote in a previous post that the 1611 KJV was more accurate than the RSV Bible. Now, if there is that much difference in 400 years, then could it be possible that the KJV is a bit skewed as well? No matter, its not the point I'm trying to make.

"The question then becomes, "When does this humanness begin?" I cannot give an authoritative answer."
Says it all for me.

"When we stay blind to truth, we abide in lies. The truth is that the baby is there, in need of nourishment, protection, and love. Don't kill it because it is inconvenient. Be responsible for your actions and don't make the little ones pay for your sins."
A clear reference to those who use abortion as a means of birth control. I've already stated that I don't think abortion is a good practice. You did read that part of my reply in my initial post, did you not?

"The issue, the main issue, that you have avoided and continue to avoid deals with what the life in the womb actually is, human or not."
Thats terrific, but I'm not talking about cells in the womb.

"When that negativity takes root, it is far easier to destroy that life. This is why it is so important to use proper terms when discussing such a moral issue,..."
I agree wholeheartedly. Its time the religious conservatives called stem cell research exactly that, and not "that sounds like abortion to me".

"Second, whether or not a baby is "unwanted" is irrelevant. Just because a human being is not wanted, does not mean that the human being has no value or should be killed. In addition, huge numbers of families who are willing to adopt those "unwanted" babies. So, those babies are wanted, not unwanted."
By relegating stem cell research to the negativity accorded abortion, you effectively say that a cure for all those affected by the various genetic and cell related maladies is unwanted. It then follows that a value of something less than full human is assigned to those who have those maladies, because we fail to use the knowledge and skills we have to better the human race as a whole.

I haven't questioned your beliefs, Budd. I have said repeatedly that the issue you are debating is not the issue I wrote to Senator Santorum about. Sadly, you are among many religious conservatives who have confused the issues and are quite clearly lacking in facts.
The verses you noted do not deal with the beginning of human life. As you said, that is a scientific subject, and the Bible has no scientific notation in it. As such, it is wrong to quote scripture to answer a medical question. The question at hand is a medical and scientific one, not one of morality and murder, as you and the Senator have assumed.

A vendetta? Lets go back to the URL mentioning negative connotations to words. What I am doing is not a vendetta, it is a visible and loudmouthed support for research that could solve millions of human kinds problems. Thats not a vendetta... it might be a crusade, or a rally, or many other things, but its not a vendetta.
Then, you claim I cannot choose for others in these treatments. I don't even pretend to do so; I merely ask that these choices be available to those who DO choose to have their circumstances improved. You say I am a champion for an unknown cause.... indeed, even if I am, it is a necessary task, for if it is as unknown as you claim (which I doubt) it should be known better. Further, it should be known on its merits, not the heap of propaganda which you have heaped upon it.

Ah yes, a return to the dark ages is long overdue.
Without meaning to be personal, but doing so anyway, do you think it follows your above statement to say that heart surgery and cardio science should not be taught? I am very glad that there was a medical answer to your, and other's, heart problems. Yet you and the fundimentalist religious crowd would stand in the way for the same progress to be made on my brother's medical problems.

And again, I ask, who created all of that? Who caused there to be disease, sin death, and pain?

Science, by definition, uses the scientific method, which is a method of solving the mysteries of life itself.

I haven't limited him. In denying research on stem cells, you've denied use of knowledge of His creation. Is that not limiting God? If God is all that you say above, would it not follow that He ALLOWED us to have the knowledge to conduct this research? By saying that God is infallible, you open the door to all His decisions, including those dealing with scientific knowledge, to be called perfect. You cannot say on one hand that God doesn't want us to do these things, and on the other say that God has the power to stop us and cut off our knowledge that allows us to do these things. Further, if you believe that all beings are known to God before they exist in physical form, and that He knows what their purpose is, and what they will do in life, "predetermination" as its called, then you must also believe that God intended that mankind benefit from this knowledge and these individuals skills.

I wil lalways question anyone's right to impose their religious beliefs upon me and others that do not want those beliefs. If you believe that each man has certain inalienable Rights, and that those Rights were handed down by God, then you know that you must abide by God's Word on that as well.
I have not told you how to live as a Christian, I have merely asked that you and others see the difference between abortion and stem cell research.
Jesus WAS mere mortal, that was the POINT in sending Him here as God's only Son. If God has sent him as a wandering spirit apparition, nothing would have been gained. If Jesus were not a mortal being, He could not have DIED.

I'd rather live knowing God gave us knowledge to use, than to live assuming knowledge was only God's to use.
--
Max

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Did he just BASH Catholics????????
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Yeah, he did. However, in his defense, that is one fact he got right. The actions of the Catholic Church are part of the reason Europe went through the Dark Ages.
--
Max

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beekeep
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So you can't be friends with anyone who doesn't believe what you believe? My, what a lonely, secluded life you must lead.

I don't see where he did that, Budd. Nowhere did I see him say, "you need to believe what I believe". I do, however, see that coming from you.
I guess I'm on the "naughty, not nice" list too, since I happen to agree with Max's point of view on this subject. So be it... know that I still think you're a good guy, regardless of the contempt you may have for me and my dispicable beliefs and values.
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Well, Tom, if you're going to sit there and tell me how despicable I am for not supporting stem cell research, then maybe you are.
My point is simple, my beliefs are not the topic, my beliefs are not open to suggestion or correction, and no one has the right to tell me my opinions are wrong because of what I believe and I'll killfile anyone that thinks they can tell me those things. I do not have to take that stuff from anyone and I'm tired of being insulted because I don't believe as the crowd thinks I should and no one, so far, has been responsible enough to accept the fact they have insulted me and apologize, they just say I have to be more "tolerant".
Think of it like this, if I'm insulted enough to killfile a guy I've respected and called "friend" for close to ten years, what does that say about what's going on? That I'm being hardnosed? Yep and will continue to be. That others are being insulting about my beliefs? Yep, and some do it for the fun of picking on me.
But it also means enough is enough. It's time for someone else to be "tolerant" and responsible.
--
Budd Cochran

John 3:16-17, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:23, 6:23
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It does, until you try to force your beliefs on others. What do you call it when you tell someone that because of their beliefs they are: crazy, senile, stupid, intolerant, sub-human, despicable, etc. and they need to be like yourself to be acceptable?
Contrary to what has been said to the point of idiocy, I have not told anyone to become a Fundamental Believer like myself, nor have I insisted such. I have told about differences between the faiths of others and my own, corrected some misinterpretations / misquotes, in hopes that maybe, with that knowledge, some would be learn I am not the bad guy.
Those hopes died on the vine because too many were already biased against me for other reasons in some cases, and my beliefs just proved them right, in their own mind as determined by their bigotries.

____I-M-H-O___, you cannot own that book and be a Christian. But that is my OPINION.
As for the Catholic faith, I erred in accidentally posting to the group my reply to your question and I apologized.
If the Catholic Church is not meeting your needs, spiritually, then please remember, one friend to another, that there are many denominations. Some are closer to the written Word than others. My suggestion, as your friend, the denomination that will be the least critical of your past beliefs and yet also one that is very close to the Scriptures is the Evangelical Free Church. Don't hesitate to interview a pastor as you would an employee. If he objects, then try somewhere else as a pastor is a servant, not a king. Ask what is believed and what is taught.

If Max had looked a bit more carefully at my replies, he would have seen I had objections to only stem cell research requiring human embryonic or zygote cells. I have no objection to adult stem cell research.
As for my beliefs, do I not have the right to say what my beliefs are concerning a topic? That was my original reply, and BOOM!!!! I'm in trouble for being honest, being a friend and sharing my beliefs on a matter, AS THE ORIGINAL POSTER REQUESTED PEOPLE TO DO.
Or am I to just shut the heck up and go away? Just get rid of the trouble-making crazy old fart Christian, he's worthless anyway. That'll make several very happy.

I can if you do it to me first. It's called "defending my faith". Again, until I was told I was despicable for not condoning the research and thereby being guilty of "killing untold millions of people" ( that was the implication as I understood it) because I believe the Bible, AS IT IS WRITTEN, I had no problems with the topic. But it's been decided by many that because I believe as I do, I am automatically the bad guy.
Stop and think back some time ago when you had a very important personal decision to make and you emailed me for advice. Was that advice the advice of someone that cared about you as a friend or the kind of advice someone that doesn't care about others gives? I used the Bible's teachings to help me advise you, my friend.

I do not know of any because they cluster in towns like Colorado City, AZ. Yes, Utah is predominately Mormon, but Moab, in a parallel with the Moab of Bible, isn't mostly Mormon and it drives the LDS hierarchy crazy.
How do I get along with them? If they don't want to hear about my beliefs, they shut up about theirs and keep the missionaries away. I have neighbors around me that are Mormon, Catholic, and Jehovah's Witness. We have a quiet little cul-de-sac with no religious tension. We live around and help each other.

Max crossed the line when he accused me of not caring about others. I understand the concerns you, he and others have. Try to remember; Polio is a neurological disease, Diabetes is inherited (mostly) and the most probable cause for my heart condition which can also be inherited. So, I have health troubles that stem cell research might someday help, BUT I DO NOT WANT A SINGLE LIFE OF ANY AGE SHED TO DEVELOP THAT TREATMENT FOR ME. THAT IS MY POSITION ON THE MATTER. But I also do not place my faith in fallible man. Remember that ruckus in the news about that Korean researcher that LIED about results? How do you know what results they still have are correct?
Budd
--
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