Is the Hummer "greener" than the Prius?

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wrote:


Top Gear is the best TV program ever in the history of everything.
Unfortunately for me, I have to download it illegally because it doesn't fly in the states.
bob z.
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N8N wrote:

Longer actually. Since 1903 in ships and the 1920's for rail locomotives.

The scaling is trivially simple.

That's because it very foolishly still uses the engine for direct mechanical propulsion with all the attendant heavy engineering (gearboxes and transmision shafts) and energy wasteful overhead that entails.
Graham
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Eeyore wrote:

You know something that Toyota, GM, and all the other automakers don't? Why are you wasting your time posting to Usenet instead of patenting the process then?

No, the real reason is the density (or lack thereof) of the storage batteries.
nate
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Because there's nothing to patent.
Many of the bits aready exist on the shelves. All it needs is someone to bolt them together. Detroit most certainly doesn't seem inclined to do this however.
There may actually be a shortage of suitable compact 300-600cc ICEs with matching high power alternators though.
Any engine manufacturer with some wisdom and foresight ought to be looking to this right now.

Pretty much sorted now for a hybrid that needs maybe only 50 miles of pure EV operation.
With state of the art NiMHs you can get that capacity in about 100kg (220 lbs).
Graham
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Eeyore wrote:

Not Detroit, not the Japanese, Europeans, or Koreans either. Let me guess, it's a conspiracy by the same people who suppressed the Fish carburetor and other miracle energy-saving devices.

Let me repeat myself yet again: THE PROBLEM IS THE ENERGY STORAGE DENSITY (actually energy per unit weight) OF THE BATTERIES. It's not the engines, and it's not a conspiracy. It's the fact that the technological breakthrough hasn't happened yet. The technology is not "mature," it's not even leading edge yet.

For what vehicle weight? Running A/C? Lights?
Compare and contrast with gasoline, where even my wallowing pig of an Impala will run about 400 miles on a 15 gallon tank of gasoline - at a specific gravity of about 0.7 and where water weighs about 8.33 lb/gal, that's still only about 90 lbs; significantly less than your numbers which sound optimistic.
A more pertinent measure of density would be BTU/lb or the SI equivalent thereof. Gasoline contains about 125,000 BTU per US gallon. Therefore 125,000 * .7 * 8.33 = over 700,000 BTU/lb for gasoline, or in units that the rest of the world would follow, about 740mJ/lb or 1600mJ/kg. When batteries (or capacitors, or whatever) achieve that kind of energy density, then we can talk - that's the point at which you can think about coming close to the power/weight ratio of a gasoline powered car while still maintaining reasonable range.
nate
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Sorry, I just realized I'd actually neglected something... an Otto or Diesel cycle engine is at best slightly less than 30% efficient while an electric drivetrain can achieve 90% or more. So divide my answer by a factor of three to get a real number.
nate
(oops, I hate when I do that, try to correct someone and then get my answer wrong...)
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Exactly.
That's where we are right now. 540MJ/kg didn't I say ?
Did it not click when kids started buying battery powered model aircraft ?
Graham
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NN> Nate Nagel wrote:

NN> Sorry, I just realized I'd actually neglected something... an Otto NN> or NN> Diesel cycle engine is at best slightly less than 30% efficient NN> while an NN> electric drivetrain can achieve 90% or more. So divide my answer by NN> a NN> factor of three to get a real number. NN> nate NN> (oops, I hate when I do that, try to correct someone and then get my NN> answer wrong...) You neglected the efficiency of the electrical power generating and transmission systems. While hydro power generation is very efficient the majority of power is generated thermally by burning some sort of fuel; be it coal, gas, or nuclear. Most thermal generating plants have efficiencies ranging from about 30% to 40%. If we factor in transmission line losses, we arrive at 27 to 35 % efficiency to deliver electric power to your residence. Then after we factor in the 90% efficiency of an electric vehicle we end up with an overall efficiency not much different to a gasoline powered vehicle.
Moreover, electric power tends to be more expensive than fossil fuels.
Cheers,
Indrek Aavisto
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Indrek Aavisto wrote:

All perfectly true. The difference being that you don't need oil and you have zero emissions where the car is actually used.
That electricity can be generated from 'green' sources too.

Really ?
My own concept EV costs only ~ 4c/mile in electricity. The larger part of the mileage cost is actually amortisation of the battery cost which brings the total to ~12c/mile.
Graham
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Who woulda thunk it. When I was studying to be an engineer we were taught a gallon of distilled water weighed 7.92 Lbs and gasoline 6.03 Lbs
Dixon Kemp's technical dictionary says the following:
One gallon fresh water weighs 10.01lb.; one pint 20oz. A ton of fresh water is usually taken as 36 cubic feet; a ton of salt water as 35 cubic feet. (See "Cubic Measure of Water.")
U.S. Dept. of Energy says the following
Weight of One Gallon (U.S.) of Water, Gasoline, and Ethanol
* 1 gallon of water equals 8.33 lbs. * 1 gallon of gasoline equals 5.8 to 6.5 lbs. * 1 gallon of ethanol equals 6.59 lbs.
Source: U.S. Dept. of Energy. Fuel From Farms: a Guide to Small Scale Ethanol Production. May 1980. Page D-3.
Verified by: JT, 9/98
Disclaimer: While the Library has verified the information presented in these files in what it considers to be reliable and authoritative sources, it cannot take responsibility for nor guarantee the accuracy of the information presented.
Santa Cruz Public Libraries' Home Page
mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Fascinating that a whole antique system of units is preserved only in one country in the entire developed world.
Graham
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Thank you. We're proud of it too.
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wrote:

Hey, when it's what you're taught, it's what you use. Although I wouldn't be sad if I never saw another slug in my life (calculations involving mass are so much easier in SI)
nate
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N8N wrote:

I think you mean "calculations are so much easier in SI" !
What's a slug btw ?
Graham
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The metric system would be a whole lot easier to use, once the transition phase had been accomplished. Supposedly we (USA) were going to switch over to metrics, when? - 30-odd years ago? Then supposedly again, perhaps it was about... 20 years ago: oh, yeah, we're switching over. Some signs even popped up on the NYS Thruway, stating how many km until the next exit. Ha. No switch. (And the signs disappeared; either that, or I don't even notice them any longer!)
Cathy

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We don't throw out that which is useful just because some Frenchified academics feel otherwise.
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There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
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"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote:

What's so useful about a system that uses multiples of 3, 8, 12, 16 etc... between adjacent units ?
Graham
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1) The entire country is surveyed in those units 2) There are a plethora of useful integer-valued approximations.
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Nate Nagel wrote:

I haven't a clue what you mean.
The carburettor was always a dead-end technically. Anything that continued to pour fuel into a decelerating engine had no future, so there's no comparison.
Graham
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Eeyore wrote:

What I mean is, you sound like the normal technically illiterate blowhard that I used to have to put up with at parties when I briefly worked in the automotive industry, who when finding out who my employer was would rail at me in about how some wonderful yet thermodynamically (or otherwise technically) impossible technology that could save so much energy, the environment, and bring back the dodo and the passenger pigeon, if only it weren't being suppressed by a conspiracy between the Big Three, the government, the Masons, and/or the guy that was really behind the Kennedy assassination.
nate
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