2001 XG300 Spark Plugs and the dealer

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Recently my battery died and I had to replace it. Costco or BJs didn't have one so I spent $150 in Sears. Then I brought it into the dealer (big mistake) to check or change the transmission fluid. The
service manager called me and told me I needed to replace the fluid and also replace the spark plugs and wires and that would cost $510. I had just replaced the air sensor assembly for $450 with this dealer and I was a little pissed to say the least. I told the service manager that I am taking the car somewhere else and they charged me for $100 for the diagnosis fee. I told the service manager that I wasn't an idiot and the car's performance could not have deterioated in one night, since the battery was changed. Unless the computer needed to readjust itself. It was fine before except for the needing the transmission fluid.
When I got the car back the check engine light was on and I don't believe it was on before I brought it there but now I don't remember. The engine sounded lousy, it smelled and it stalled or almost did at stops. I believe the dealer did something to the car or maybe messed around with the spark plug wires. I feel that this dealer is a thief and whatever I do, in three months, something else will happen. The car has only 47k miles, Hyundai replaced the transmission back in July of 03, so when i ultimatey changed the ATF, at Aamco, with the Diamond SP3, it was within the prescribed maintenance time
I wonder how hard it is to change the plugs and ignition wires. I would also like to change the belts, except for the timing belt. I used to do that simple stuff when I was a kid and I understand the problem now is where the plugs are. I found this one the net: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you change the spark plugs on a 2001 xg300? In: Hyundai XG300
The Nightmare of Changing Plugs
First assemble your tools, socket wrench etc and gapped sparkplugs. if the sparkplugs are deep in the engine and you pull on the wires to get the terminal off the plugs you will gasp in horror as the wires pull in half. When the screaming stops pull all the wires off, at least half will have pulled into two parts. then go to auto parts store and get new wires. Using new wires change plugs in the usuall manner. this is a true story. here's the real answer. Follow closely.
1. Remove the six 10mm bolts and remove the engine cover. 2. Unplug the air flow sensor connector and take the wiring loose from the air bellows. 3. Remove the pcv breather hose from the air bellows. 4. Undo the clips holding the air box together. 5. Loosen the clamp holding the air bellows on the throttle body. 6. Remove the top of the air box, the airflow sensor, and the air bellows as an assembly. 7. Undo any electrical connectors attaching to items on the plenum and throttle body. 8. Move the harness out of the way enough that it'll allow you to lift the plenum off. This may involve unplugging connectors in other places and unclipping the harness from ties in order to get the necessary slack. 9. Remove the vacuum line from the EGR valve and the fuel pressure regulator (if you have one). 10. Remove the hose that goes toward the rear of the car from the purge control valve. 11. Remove the four 12mm bolts attaching the support brackets to the rear of the plenum and throttle body. 12. Remove the 12mm bolt attaching the EGR pipe bracket to the rear of the plenum. 13. Remove the two 12mm bolts attaching the EGR valve to the plenum. Take care to not lose the EGR gasket. 14. Remove the 12mm bolts and nuts (7 I think) attaching the plenum to the lower manifold. 15. Lift the plenum off the manifold and tilt up the side opposite the throttle body until it's standing close to vertical near the bottom half of the air box. (There are still coolant hoses attached to the throttle body, so you won't be able to lift that side very far). You can use a bungee or other tie to hold the plenum so it can't fall back down. 16. Cover the openings in the manifold with rags or something similar to prevent anything from falling inside the engine. 17. Remove the spark plug wires. 18. Remove the rear spark plugs. 19. Install new spark plugs in the rear bank. 20. Remove the ignition coils (two 10mm bolts each). 21. Remove the front spark plugs. 22. Install new spark plugs in the front bank. 23. Reinstall the coils. 24. Install the new wires (connecting cylinders as described above). 25. Remove the rags from the intake manifold and remove the plenum gasket. 26. Install the new plenum gasket. 27. Lower the plenum back onto the lower manifold. 28. Start the bolts and nuts attaching the plenum to the manifold, but do not tighten them. 29. Start the bolts attaching the support brackets, the EGR pipe bracket, and the EGR valve, being sure to properly align the EGR gasket and reinstall the wire holder on the lower EGR valve bolt. 30. Tighten the bolts and nuts attaching the plenum to the manifold. 31. Tighten the bolts attaching the items on the rear of the plenum. 32. Reconnect your vacuum and purge hoses. 33. Reconnect your electrical connectors and return the harness to its original configuration. 34. Reinstall the top of the air box, airflow sensor, and air bellows and secure. 35. Reconnect the PCV breather hose. 36. Reconnect the airflow sensor connector and return the wiring to its original holders and configuration. 37. Reinstall the engine cover and tighten the 6 bolts holding it in place. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Just as a comparison, the Chilton/DIY online guide says:
1. Remove the engine cover
2. Disconnect the Variable Intake System (VIS) actuator and connectors and the fuel injector connectors
3. Remove accelerator cables
4. Remove surge tank sub assembly
that's it compared to all the steps above...then it says renmove spark plug cables and plus...check electrode gap of new plugs. To install, reverse the removal procedures and tighten the plugs to 11 ft lbs (15Nm) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could either do all this myself or perhaps bring it to a mechanic who could give me a better price to do the plugs, wires, belts and timing belt in one shot. The question is where to bring it.
Alan
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Here's a web site with pictures of changing the plugs on a Santa fe. one picture is worth a thousand words. I don't know what engine your xg has, but these instructions worked perfectly for my 2003 sonata. http://www.geocities.com/hennesseystealth/santafe.html

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Partner, Wow, those are great pictures and I believe the 2001 xg300 is similar. I couldn't find them on the Web because I was searching for XG300 Thank you so much.
I am saving this car for my daughter to drive because it's a good heavy and safe car and letting the dealer go wild with repairs could cost $5,000 with everything they could make happen. I don't know what I would get for a trade but add that to all the repairs and you have a substantial down payment on a brand new car. Plus, it brings me back to the days of my 6 year old 1960 Olds 98 my cousin gave me when I was in high school. I think the pictures are like the instructions I have but nothing like what Chilton/diy had.
I am going to check for videos now but what a tremendous advantage that pictures are. Without them I don't think I would have attempted the spark plug change. Any suggestion for plus and wires? I believe you have to stick with a specific Champion plug to maintain the warranty but what about the wires and the plenum gasket> ...another thing Chilton/diy doesn't tell you/
Alan
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It seems like part of the story is missing here, Alan. You took your car to the dealer after the battery replacement only for a replacement of the transmission fluid?? If that's the case, I don't understand why there would be a diagnostic fee at all-- you'd have been quoted the price of the job up front. And I don't understand why you refer to a performance issue. Was there a peformance issue after the battery replacement that you asked the dealer to diagnose? If so, what was this issue?
As for the actual job of changing the spark plugs, the long list of instructions above is rather complete. Don't expect a price break on doing the spark plugs and timing belt at the same time. There's so little overlap between these two jobs as to be negligible. Recommended plug replacement is at 60k miles.
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Hyundaimech,
Yep, yep, it's been a few weeks since I did it and I forgot. The check engine light came on and the car began to react the same way it did when I replaced the air sensor assembly 2 months earlier for $450. It began to stall at stops. Previous to the battery change the car was riding smoothly and the only problem I was having was a little kick when backing down the drive way and switching into forward in the very cold weather. That stopped totally after the fluid change, which was after I took the car back from Hyundai and went to Aamco.
So, to summarize, right after the battery was replaced at Sears, the performance and the"almost stalling" began again just like it had done when the air sensor assembly was replaced less than 90 days earlier. I got the feeling that the new air sensor assembly was bad and they would have to replace it for free, so why not invent something like the plugs needing to be replaced and charge me $510 more. It there was deteriorating performance before the battery died, then I'd have to believe the service manager but since the car was riding so well, with great pickup, I thought he was lying and I told him that I am not stupid and I wouldn't fall for a story like that. Which pissed him off. Could the bad battery have killed the plugs? If not, the guy was lying and he thought he saw that this car would bring the dealership an annuity, as sooner or later they would have to replace almost everything that is not in the power train guaranty.
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:42:53 -0700 (PDT), hyundaitech

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I'm in no position to decide whether the dealer was lying to you, but here's what I can say:
You were charged a diagnostic fee because the dealer diagnosed your vehicle and you elected to not have the repairs done. If Sears did not reinitialize the throttle, then that could potentially cause a stalling (or near stall) issue. Defective spark plugs can also cause a near-stall issue. The fact that the check engine lamp illuminated indicates that the ECM detected some sort of problem. A defective battery cannot cause failure of the spark plugs. This does not imply that the spark plugs cannot fail at the same time (or nearly the same time) as the battery. If your car is now running properly, the check engine lamp is off and is staying off, and the plugs have not yet been replaced, it's a safe bet that the plugs are not the cause of the problem. If your engine is misfiring, you can damage your catalytic converter.
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What do you mean by re-initialize the throttle....whatever that is, I am sure they didn't do it.
Now, the car is not running properly at all. It lacks power and almost stalls at stops. I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer did something to make sure that would happen because the car was running great, except for the battery and after the battery was replaced it started to run badly and the check engine light came on and is still on. Maybe all that had to be done is to re-initialize the throttle but that's not a big enough job.
How do you re-initialize the throttle? Is that like raising the idle speed? Perhaps the throttle needed to be reinitialized and when the dealer got it they decided to go for a shot at me falling for having the plugs replaced. I hate to be so cynical but none of this makes sense to me...the car was running too well before the battery was replaced.
Then what happens if the car is still not right after they replaced the plugs and wires, after my spending $554, or I do it myself, and after the air sensor was just replaced for $450? What would they try next.
I need to order the plugs, the wires and the plenum gasket. Any suggestions where to get that? I know for the plugs I need Champion RC10PYP4 but what kind of wires and gasket?
Also, I want to get one of the diagnostic computers. I think they are about $50. Which are the best to get?
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 00:14:20 -0700 (PDT), hyundaitech

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You've got to give up on your conspriacy theories. Yeah - dealers all over the place sabatoge customer's cars so they can get the service money out of the customer. You just stated that the car ran badly after the batter replacement, which was done before you went to the dealer. For the love of Pete - are you really serious with this stuff?

You don't seem to have a grasp on how cars work, so it's not surprising that none of this makes any sense to you. You need to read hyundaitech's reply to you again - he gave you answers in that reply.

They'd problably stick a hidden camera in the A-pillar so that they could capture your ATM PIN and steal all of your money out of your bank account. It's much faster that way - no need to have you come in for service.
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Mike,
As far as conspiracy theories, I have seen more incompetence in every facet of life than I care to believe. Why should Car Dealers be any different, especially at a time when their income is not what they expected.
As far as the performance of the car, let me restate it. The car was running great after the air sensor was replaced in Jan or Feb 09. Pickup was good and the engine sounded smooth. That continued up and until the battery was replaced. On the way home from Sears, the car was trying like hell to stall at every stop. Before thinking that I am Oliver Stone, perhaps **not re-initializing the throttle** was THAT problem. Maybe if that was done, there would not have been any more problems. But I didn't know that and Sears should have.
So, the car was almost stalling when I brought it in to the dealer and the check engine light was on. Perhaps that was the throttle problem. The stalling was the problem but before the dealer got his hands on the car BUT there was no problem with the smoothness of the engine or the smell of gas when I stopped the car. That all happened AFTER I picked up the car from the dealer and after his so called diagnostic test that said the car was misfiring. The car was not misfiring, as far as I could tell before the dealer got it and afterward the car sounded like it had Bronchitis. I know the difference.
The other possibility is that the when they did their diagnostic test and I told him I did not want him to change the plugs, he said he'd have to put everything back. I don't know what that meant. I am not sure what his $99 diagnostic test involved. I'd bet it was just that little computer that you can buy for $50 and I'm pretty confident he didn't take the plugs and wires out to look them. However, if he wanted to, I am sure he could do something to either the plugs and the wires that are easy to get to that would cause misfires.
So, I am no mechanic, we know that, but I am also not an idiot. After seeing bankers, stock brokers, doctors, mechanics, lawyers, judges, newspaper people and politicians do things that make you want to shoot them, why would I not think a dealer is not just as prone to doing for himself even if it means screwing the customers, clients or patients. I know the car was fine, except for the stalling before the dealer got it and after the dealer gave me the car back it sounded congested and smelled.
Maybe I don't want to get taken for one thing after another and something like changing the plugs is something I can do. If it doesn't fix the problem, I am giving a different dealer the car with new wires and plugs and I will check the computer codes myself. So for less than $200 I get the plugs, the wires, the gasket and the computer and go into the next phase a little better prepared.
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:59:54 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

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This means to have the ECM relearn the throttle position at idle both without loads on and again with A/C on. Without this information, the ECM may allow the idle to dip too low and the engine can stall.

This is the thing that makes me think the dealer had nothing to do with this. You say the vehicle was running poorly prior to even taking the car to the dealer. Why would you think they did something to it if it was not running well prior to it ever arriving at the dealer? Doesn't seem logical.

First, you'd need to do a throttle sweep so the ECM can calibrate throttle plate position to TPS reading. Then, you'd need to have the car idle for a significant period of time at operating temperature, once with the A/C off, and then again with the A/C on.

You'd need to ask the dealer. If they're sure the plugs/wires are the problem, they're not likely to have any issue guaranteeing that'll fix your issue (but not that some other problem causing the same or similar symptoms won't occur at a later time). Ask the dealer straight up. If replacing the plugs/wires doesn't fix it, will they still charge you?

I know Mike disagrees with me on this, but I'm sold on factory wires. You should be able to find the Champion (or equivalent NGK, which I prefer) plugs at your local auto parts store. As for the plenum gasket, it's pretty basic. Just needs to seal. Anyone's plenum gasket should do that.

For $50, the most you'll get is a code reader. Based on your posting, I'd say this would be of minimal value to you. I don't intend to be critical of your knowledge, and I've certainly not met you in person to get a better idea, but so far I think I have to agree with Mike that it seems you lack a basic understanding of how the systems of the car operate, and in this specific case, what's occurring and what a misfire feels like. Even knowing the trouble code, you still need to know how to examine the components and wiring to find the source of the problem reported by the ECM.
I know auto repairs are expensive, but it can be even more expensive guessing at what the problem may be. If you look through my posts, you'll see several replies to the generic "I have code Pxxxx. What's wrong with my car?" What you'll find is that in some cases I'll tell the poster to make a particular repair, and in other cases, I'll tell the poster which things need to be checked to find the problem. In both cases, my reply is based on my experience and knowledge of common failures.
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Dear Alan,
I have a 2001 XG 300 with 190K kms on it. The dealer usually give customers discount on their repair service. I let them to replace the timing belt, had a full tune up included replace all spark plugs and wires, replaced and flush all fluids, and check and overhaul all brakes. The total cost was $1800.- It worth it for the XG is a heavy but a safe car. I got around 15% off from the total bill. They even provide me a few car wash coupons as their compliments. I know auto repairs are expensive, however I would trust the fellows that trained by the manufacturer that would keep the vehicles back to their standards.
Parousia
???????: snipped-for-privacy@r31g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

This means to have the ECM relearn the throttle position at idle both without loads on and again with A/C on. Without this information, the ECM may allow the idle to dip too low and the engine can stall.

This is the thing that makes me think the dealer had nothing to do with this. You say the vehicle was running poorly prior to even taking the car to the dealer. Why would you think they did something to it if it was not running well prior to it ever arriving at the dealer? Doesn't seem logical.

First, you'd need to do a throttle sweep so the ECM can calibrate throttle plate position to TPS reading. Then, you'd need to have the car idle for a significant period of time at operating temperature, once with the A/C off, and then again with the A/C on.

You'd need to ask the dealer. If they're sure the plugs/wires are the problem, they're not likely to have any issue guaranteeing that'll fix your issue (but not that some other problem causing the same or similar symptoms won't occur at a later time). Ask the dealer straight up. If replacing the plugs/wires doesn't fix it, will they still charge you?

I know Mike disagrees with me on this, but I'm sold on factory wires. You should be able to find the Champion (or equivalent NGK, which I prefer) plugs at your local auto parts store. As for the plenum gasket, it's pretty basic. Just needs to seal. Anyone's plenum gasket should do that.

For $50, the most you'll get is a code reader. Based on your posting, I'd say this would be of minimal value to you. I don't intend to be critical of your knowledge, and I've certainly not met you in person to get a better idea, but so far I think I have to agree with Mike that it seems you lack a basic understanding of how the systems of the car operate, and in this specific case, what's occurring and what a misfire feels like. Even knowing the trouble code, you still need to know how to examine the components and wiring to find the source of the problem reported by the ECM.
I know auto repairs are expensive, but it can be even more expensive guessing at what the problem may be. If you look through my posts, you'll see several replies to the generic "I have code Pxxxx. What's wrong with my car?" What you'll find is that in some cases I'll tell the poster to make a particular repair, and in other cases, I'll tell the poster which things need to be checked to find the problem. In both cases, my reply is based on my experience and knowledge of common failures.
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You are absolutely right but when you start off not trusting them, that's not a good sign. I agree there is something safe about using a dealer. Years ago we had a Maxima that we took to our local mechanic who we liked very. He placed the alternator and it continued to fail. Then he sent the car to a place called Flushing Electric and they traced shorts etc that could be killing the alternator. We brought the car back to them 3 times and then we went to a Nissan dealer and told them what was happening and they said that they had a bulliten from Nissan that said whenever you replace the alternator to you always have to replace the electrical harness with it. Bingo, that did it.
However, I'd be willing to bet that changing these plugs and wires was not the problem, it may be now, but it wasn't before the dealer got it. When I do replace them soon, I will look for gap errors, junk on the plugs and/or cut or loose wires and if I find them I will...well I am not sure what I will do but the dealer will not be happy.
Alan
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On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:55:38 -0700 (PDT), hyundaitech

So, is it possible I never should have brought the car in and instead run it for awhile as the ECM relearns the car?

But then as he once told me when the air sensor was replaced, the bad air sensor could cause something else to go wrong. Maybe that's true but I am so disbelieving because plugs and wires cannot go in a day and the car was smooth but stalling before the dealer got it and afterward it was still stalling AND the car sounded like it had Bronchitis and smelled of gas after I stopped.
One other thing happened occasionally, when I was driving on the highway for any length of time and got off at a short exit, the car would sometimes shake a little when I had to come to a quick stop. That was before anything happened. It rarely happened but did sometimes, can that mean anything?

NGK will not void the guarantee on the drive train?

Minimal value is correct but if I get reading that says it's a P9999 and the dealer says it was a P5555, something is wrong someplace. I want to go in a little bit armed with some knowledge.
As far as basic knowledge, it might not hurt to learn how to take car of your own car or at least know some of its idiosyncrasies because dealerships will be closing all over. I don't know about Hyundai but certainly Chrysler and GM will be closing many.

I can understand that but before I started this ex cerise, I had no idea what made my car tick. I still haven't learned that much yet and there are still many many more things that I cannot do than I can do. I think changing the plugs and the wires and the air filter are about it. But it's fun to learn from great people like you and the either people here like Mike, etc and it makes us feel less vulnerable.
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I don't think I'd say "should have." Perhaps "could have." In any case, you shouldn't be expected to. Sears should have done this, and they should have known to do it.

This is BS. This one statement makes me think maybe they didn't know if the air flow sensor was the actual problem and were opening the door to be able to charge you for more repairs later. A faulty air flow sensor can make your car run poorly, but it cannot damage other components.

It sounds like maybe you had a misfire problem developing or perhaps an EGR solenoid sticking open. If it were the misfire and you had a misfire code stored in the PCM, that would explain the dealer checking the plugs and surmising the plugs were potentially the issue, especially if by the time the car got to them, the throttle had already self-learned.

Not unless they cause a powertrain failure. Note that the plugs are not considered powertrain components. Furthermore, either the factory originals or replacements (can't remember which) are NGK.

That's something, but I seriously doubt most dealers would misrepresent this. The vast majority of misrepairs I see are from poor diagnosis or technicians being uneducated about proper repair procedures. Very rarely do I see a car sabotaged or misrepaired with any sort of malicious intent. Nearly all technicians are at least attempting to do a good repair job. I can guarantee you that the dealer did not use a $50 code reader to diagnose your car. The dealer is required by Hyundai to have a $3000 scan tool and a separate diagnostic laptop which costs about $9000. The use of the equipement is part of the reason you're charged a diagnostic fee.

Having some knowledge of your car is a great idea under nearly any circumstance.
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I just priced the parts and the plugs, the wires and the plenum gasket were $152.42 from the dealer where I bought the car (another one opened closer, and that is the one I took the car to because I could get a ride back). That is before I buy the computer and the torque wrench. I already spent that $100 which I believe that would apply to this job (but maybe not), so I am at $252.42 plus the computer and the wrench...another $75 so that is $325. If I go back to the dealer it will cost me $510 plus tax or about $550. I'll save $225, learn something about the car, walk away with a computer and a torque wrench and the a chance to have something fall into the intake manifold and blow the engine! Just kidding about the last one. It's not a lot of money but it is the principle of it all and the fact that it might be fun to do this. If worse come to worse, I can call the AAA and ask them to tow the car to a gas station or a dealer.
I am going to get all the parts from the dealer since the prices were fairly good $11.22 for the plenum gasket, 50.88 for the wires and $13.19 for the plugs plus tax. Or I can get the better NGK PFR5N-11 plugs and the NGK KRX009 Wires and the gasket for a little more from Amazon.
Alan
On Mon, 4 May 2009 17:26:32 -0700 (PDT), hyundaitech

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Way to go Alan. No better way to learn than to grenade a car of two. Joking, of course... Do yourself a favor and get yourself a free account on the Hyundai web site. You'll need IE since it does not recognize Firefox. Complete service information at your fingertips (well - with a little searching...) and all for free.
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Mike forgot the link. www.hmaservice.com not the regular Hyundai site.
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wrote in message

You da man Edwin. I hate it when I do that...
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I bought the plugs, wires and the gasket for Hyundai. One thing suprised me and that was that there were only 3 wires. They guy in parts said that the other three are connected to three coils and the three wires are connected to those three coils too.
When looking on Amazon.com for the parts there was a set of NGK wires forthe XG300 that were $80 plus dollars while the some of the other NGK sets were about $50 for 6 wires.
It seems as though the NGK wires are only three also that are connected to the three coils that are connected to the other three plugs They look like good wires: http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/wire_sets/wiresets.asp
So, I also realize now that these three coils have to come off to get to the three plugs under them. Don't these coils go bad. They guy at Hyundai said they rarely go bad and they are very expensive to replace. God help that other dealer if he did something to the coils.
Just as a little aside about supidity and incompetence, I had a new pool heater installed the other day and no I never thought of doing it myself. However, this new heater has the wires coming in higher than the original one. The wires were long enough but the flexible pvc tubing was too short. The installer tells me I have to call an electrician for that. I said to you him, "You must be kidding. I have to pay $300 for an electrcian to come here look at the job and then get his assisstant to paste up an extension? I learned how to paste things in first grade."
I was pissed off they didn't carry the tubing, connectors and pvc glue with them. So for $2.11, I got 2 ft of tubing and two connectors and for $4.50 I got the pvc glue. One of the owners of the pool company said they would rewire the heater if I got the tubing because he went to Home Depot and said they have nothing there that would help. Duh! Well, they have a 25 ft roll for $9.00 and they had the connecters and the glue. But what is so bad about the underlying story is, they should have told us 11 years ago to add calcium to the water. That probably would have kept the heater alive for at least a few more years and would have prevented the $3,600 "marble dusting" (white cement) of the spa and the pool main drain.
Alan
On Wed, 6 May 2009 19:42:28 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

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He's correct that they don't go bad very often, but I don't remember them being all that expensive (for coils). They're easy to replace as they're all on the front bank where you can get to them easily.
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